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How about this?

I'll split up "non-canon" into two parts. One for those stories that are explicitly non-canon (think Fox Dragonrite), and one for stories that are of uncertain status (like Stealthcat's 4 stories). And I'll add another color for earlier drafts of stories, I know there was some additional confusion regarding that.

by RimmeRimme, 16 Aug 2020 01:51

Some stories are just never going to be canon. But unless we can get an authors permission we cannot make the others canon.

by MishaFoxMishaFox, 13 Aug 2020 03:44

The distinction I used was "is it a story on the archive?" :P

As someone who's read the update notes on the mailing lists… it is complicated. "Background" is non-canon because it made Thomas a gendermorph. "Long Live the King" was an attempted correction to make THAT Thomas be the father of the current Thomas… but after "Malvoisin", it was easier to just make them non-canon.

When the archive was first created by Lovebear, she asked everyone for permission to include their stories. Some authors, from what I can tell, forgot to give permission (i.e. Eric Rossing and Cerulean; Jon Sleeper at first) Some authors did, but later retracted their stories, because they wanted to rewrite them and never did ("Geneses" and "Leonidus"). And some weren't added because, although other people were referring to them in-canon, they weren't technically finished ("Distant Voices", "From the Shadows").

As of now, stories are only canon if the author sends the story to the MK webmaster. I don't know if it's a hard rule to submit it to a mailing list first so that the community can beta-read it, but most people do anyway. I would guess that most authors from 2002 onward forgot to send it in.

I know what you're thinking, Misha. Could we add some of these "noncanon" stories into canon? There's no reason why not, just look at "Reflections" and "Coming Home". There are two hurdles, though:

1) Can the author be contacted to give permission? And will they give permission?
2) Do the stories fit with canon nowadays? I'm… still kinda embarrassed about preemptively adding the second half of "Penance and Retribution" into canon, when it involved a darkling invasion of Metamor that killed many, followed two weeks later by a surge of Hipoccian refugees settling in the valley, both of which went unmentioned for the rest of MK (at least Oren's follow-up stories mentioned the Hipoccians).

I actually was going to write a post to the mailing list, regarding a few noncanon stories I'd read that I feel have merit: the MK Histories by Oren the Otter; Misanthrope" and "Father Figure" by Firemane; "Sunday" by Bill Kieffer; and the 2012 revision of "A Taur's Tail" by Stephen Tigner.

And while we were at it, if someone could reassess the impressively longer stories to see how they fit in canon: "Dead of Winter", "Fire and Ice", "Meeting at Caralore", and "Menace of the Malachites" by Volk-Oboroten; "William and Emily" by ShazerFox; "Two for the Price of One", "The Spotting of a Knight", and "New Lessons to Learn and Old Ones to Teach" by Kamau.

(I did take a cursory glance at "Menace of the Malachites", and it seems it might conflict with "Llyn's Tribulations" regarding Lik. Just throwing that out there.)

by RimmeRimme, 02 Aug 2020 00:24
RyxRyx 29 Jul 2020 05:24
in discussion MK Discussion / Per page discussions » Publication History

It all depends on the story. Generally the proofers/beta readers determine if it is accepted as canonical or not.
Issues such as:
Is that how [this or that] works in the setting? Such as the Church, for instance.
Are certain 'well known' characters used directly or in passing there to have been a part of the story.
Does the story have drastic impacts on the setting.

It's complicated, and usually writers will adjust their stories to fit within what has already been accepted as canonical.

by RyxRyx, 29 Jul 2020 05:24

i have a question. How the was the Canon/Noncanon decision made?

by MishaFoxMishaFox, 25 Jul 2020 06:59

*blowing dust off of the forums* KOFF KOFF!

Anyway, I just thought to ask, as I re-read so many old, old stories and groaning at some of my own. And sometimes struck dumb at how pleasant some were.

What are your favorite characters, and why?

Mine would be Malger, that rascal. Because he is simply flamboyantly open, self-effacing of his status but aware of the power it provides him to do good things, and the mysteries of his Dreaming, and Healing.

Favorite Characters by RyxRyx, 22 Jul 2020 22:17

High Trees On
Mute Tinny
Rebel Lion

Re: Title ideas by AmigaDragonAmigaDragon, 05 Mar 2020 02:19
Re: Fun with Hexadecimal by MishaFoxMishaFox, 20 Feb 2020 03:48

You raise an interesting possibility, Ryx. If Murikeer makes a gem to record the ceremony, and a simple trigger spell to activate it, then anyone could capture the funeral. Heck, Rupert could wear it on his uniform, and they wouldn't need another Metamorian or another ship on hand.

On the other hand, I feel like there should be some technical limitation to such gems, for narrative reasons. Otherwise, what makes Gornul's or Murikeer's or even Misha's observation and illusion skills so special? How can their memories possibly compare to a perfectly-functioning recording device? Why would they need to be called upon in the future if there are easily-made gems to do the work? Maybe it costs a good deal of magic, or it has a limited capacity and can only make a single record.

Just a precaution against quick magical methods that could make plot holes further down the line.

Could have always gone all ancient Babylonian and done math in Base 60.

Re: Fun with Hexadecimal by LurkingWolfLurkingWolf, 11 Feb 2020 17:35

Hmmm, yes, our timelines were not exactly meshing at that point… and at many other points, too.
I don't see why it would be difficult to take Muri out of the Patriarch's funeral. He can teach the illusionist how to enchant a gem to store what he witnesses if he does not know the process already (as he may not be an enchanter as well).

So, next up is Liturgy of Blood. Two things.

First, the fact that Llyn was sentenced to a month in prison at the end of Llyn's Tribulations, and not allowed to leave the Keep for a year, yet she shows up 3 times in Liturgy of Blood. 1st, to ask Murikeer if he's going to see the Patriarch; 2nd, actually meeting the Patriarch; 3rd, being on patrol (outside the Keep) with Murikeer when the Patriarch dies.

I'm actually okay with Llyn doing all of this stuff. Misha is given command over her, after all, and he's not one to follow the Keep rules to the letter — especially it's the freakin' Patriarch coming to town. Plus, Misha mentions he needs to give some of his Longs a rest, and sending Llyn on a patrol to protect him seems like something Thomas would permit.

At the very least, I propose a guard or two be present during her first two scenes, and some acknowledgement of the special circumstances when Misha is briefing Murikeer and Matthias in chapter 15.

The other issue is Murikeer's presence at Akabaieth's funeral, to memorize so that he can cast an illusion of it at Metamor. In Longing, it is said that Murikeer will have been away from the Keep for at least 3 weeks. But in Getting Away From the Party, he's said to be have been by Llyn's side every day she was in prison, until late October when he goes off to Glen Avery to learn he has an aunt.

Personally, I think Murikeer should stay in Metamor to be with Llyn (and learn about his aunt), than to go south on a sudden weeks-long trip to Whales, even for the Patriarch. And there is an easy solution, because there is someone else in Metamor who can project illusions, who happens to be a good friend of Phil's, and isn't involved in any storylines at this time. He doesn't even need to be on a separate ship to avoid notice by humans.

I propose rewriting the paragraph in Liturgy of Blood's epilogue with Murikeer, replacing him with Gornul.

Again, I welcome any additions or counter-proposals to these ideas.

While I've been working on the summary for Llyn's Tribulations, there's a issue I thought I'd need to bring up.


In part 1, in the scene where Murikeer and Llyn talk, Llyn thinks about "the motivations of the raccoon she had nearly slaughtered four days past". So, 4 days after Dangerous Games, which takes place 1 day after Actions and Reactions, which takes place 2 days after the Stepping Rock raid that Killing Time mentioned was in late August.

So far so good. It wouldn't be "Late September" as the heading says, but it could pass as "Mid September".

In part 3, the scene where Rickkter and Muri meet with Thomas takes place three days after Rickkter first learns about the victims in part 1. It's also said in part 1 that attacks have happened over the past five days. Finally, in part 6, when the spell is broken, the first victim is told he's been out for two weeks.

So far, it's a consistent timeline. If Stepping Rock is Day 0, then Llyn and Muri arrive at the Keep on Day 1, victim #1 is stabbed on Day 2, Kan is stabbed and Rick finds out on Day 7, and Rick meets with Thomas on Day 10. The guards are put on an increased alert, and the spell is broken "two weeks" after Day 2, anywhere from the night of Day 10 to Day 22. (I've come to be very generous, when it comes to characters talking in weeks or months instead of an exact number of days :)


Now the clincher. When the spell is broken, he is also told the day is October 8th. An impossibility — there's no way this date could happen even 22 days after August.

However, there is one "out" I found while reading — the scene with Murikeer and Llyn is not explicitly the same day as when Rick finds Kan's body. No mention is made in the second half of part 1 of the investigation or the victims. They could take place in two separate times. This means the latter half of part 1 would happen no later than September 7th (7 days after the last day of August), and the first half could happen no earlier than September 24th (15 days before October 8th).

There's other supports for a timeline gap: Fakoffal appears at the start of part 1. He refers back to a scene in the Jolly Collie in Daylight Fading where he appeared, which takes place at least a few days after Apologies (Day 4) — therefore, Daylight Fading is on or after Day 6. It's said that Fakoffal has been at the Thirsty Scholar for 3 days, with no other tavern offering them a stay. There is also a mention in part 2 that it's been almost a fortnight since Rickkter and Kayla spent more than dinner together, and "Daylight Fading" is definitely more than dinner. ;)

But I'd rather not say a whole section happens in flashback if that was not the intent.

IMO, there's an even better solution, if Ryx agrees to it, which is to change Llyn's reference from "four days past" to "three weeks past", resolving the timeline gap by completely separating "Dangerous Games" from "Llyn's Tribulations". Then (setting Day 0 to August 30th) "Dangerous Games" happens on September 3rd, victim #1 is stabbed on September 19th, Kan is stabbed on September 24th, Duke Thomas is informed on September 27th, and the spell is broken on October 8th. (And also change Llyn's rescue from "two months past" to "three months past").

Now, I could also suggest the date October 8th be moved back a bit to October 3rd, so that:

  • per the 706 calendar, it's 15 days after September 19th and on a Saturday, more believable to call "two weeks" than the 20 days hard maximum;
  • it gives more space between Llyn's courtroom appearance 3 days later (the chapel is said to still be in ruins for the purposes of investigation), and Liturgy of Blood (the Patriarch arrives on October 11th, per the Dream's Aria stories, and tours the chapel on that day);
  • and so that Llyn is still in prison on October 27th for Getting Away from the Party (if you remember "Liturgy of Blood", you'll see another issue here — but that's another subthread).

But that is up to Ryx.

Any opinions or other solutions?

Mime Field
Mime Sweeper
What's Mime is Yours
Mimed over Matter
Mime Lives
Mime to Five

Re: Title ideas by AmigaDragonAmigaDragon, 02 Aug 2019 00:54

Gopher Broke
Gopher It
The Hang Gopher

Re: Title ideas by AmigaDragonAmigaDragon, 19 Jul 2019 02:12

Ivanhog
Ivanhorse

Re: Title ideas
RimmeRimme 17 Jan 2019 03:19
in discussion MK Discussion / Weaving Fates » Title ideas

Keep Working
Keep Searching
Keep Digging
Keep Singing
Keep Dancing

Bonus: add a second chapter titled "Nobody Gets Hurt" and title the full story like so:

Keep Dancing and Nobody Gets Hurt

Re: Title ideas by RimmeRimme, 17 Jan 2019 03:19

How about a subthread of character names?

Nair Dewelle

Taured and Feathered
Taur Pit
Re-Taured
Taur Dee
Taur Get

Re: Title ideas by AmigaDragonAmigaDragon, 19 Nov 2018 08:10

Ah …
Math always confuses me.

Re: Fun with Hexadecimal by MishaFoxMishaFox, 20 Jun 2018 05:45
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