Waste Removal / discussion

This is the discussion related to the wiki page Waste Removal.

Michael Bard 1217389411|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

What kind of insanity is this?!

Can you picture the sun rising over the walls of Metamor town (the city directly outside the variable geometry keep on the rock outcropping) drawing long lazy shadows from the Latrine Towers scattered all over the city?

How about the open wagons underneath? People sneaking in to "look up" at naked behinds? The ODOUR, even if changed daily, in a world of enhanced animal noses? The endless train of "shit wagons" going up and down the road to and from the top of the rock outcropping Metamor is on top.

The idea is LUDICROUS!

Is there no review policy on this stuff? This was put up in MAY and nobody said a word until I started ridiculing it.

Yes, some castles had "latrine towers" but they were sealed stone structures, usually over a river that the doodoo plopped down into.

Building all these towers out of STONE would be insanely expensive!

If you HAVE to have some kind of "high tech clever" waste disposal system, where does all that water pumped into the keep go? Just pipe it out of the keep, along the top of the ridge, through Roman style latrines, and then dump it off the side of the ridge and out of mind.

Though— writing the great "Latrine Rooftop Chase" has a certain appeal, as some towers are knocked over splattering goo all over the street, heavy pursuers crash through the roof an plummet down into the "well padded" wagons, the lineups at the base of people waiting to use the facilities getting bowled over by the goo falling from a wagon knocked over when a tower falls..

last edited on 1217389719|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Michael Bard + show more

Kanmuri 1217392811|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well, I don't think we have people regularly going through the pages on the wiki to check stuff out, and keep things in line, nor do I think the majority of people check the "recent changes" to keep track of changes to the wiki. And the page was hidden away on that "Notable Things" page, and most of the focus seems more on the character, places, tech, etc. sections. (At least that's what I've noticed, could be wrong, of course. n.n) That being said, this wiki is still fairly young, and I think many of us are still getting used to it, learning the ins and outs, etc. n.n

As for your other points…
Completely agree about peeping toms and the stench… the horrible stench. Not only that, but to make these 10-feet tall like proposed, you'd need to make them out of stone. Stupidly expensive and wasteful. Surely there is some other way to dispose of waste in the valley besides wagons full of smelly humanoid fecal matter traveling through it several times a day.

Re:

Virmir 1217472847|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Going to have to agree, 10 foot tall latrines emptied via wagon are pretty silly. Some sort of Roman-style sewage system would be much more practical. Heck, some sort of magic-based running water system could even be dreamed up.

Don't think this is THAT huge of a deal though, considering we're some 375 stories in and I don't recall "facilities" ever being mentioned apart from the occasional chamberpot. ;)

MishaFox 1217472962|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ok. This whole discussion is starting to get smelly and ugly. I have been chatting with people about this and the idea of the ten foot tall towers for the wagons does sound a bit too far fetched. I propose we go with a mix of things. For one we do the Roman method of public toilets which are basically just seats with a hole in them that dumps right down into the sewers or cesspit. Private latrines which are just deep holes with a seat over them in a persons back yard. And there is the old stand by of a chamber pot.

Kanmuri 1217475992|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Per discussion here, and on IRC, edited the page accordingly to represent a sewer system instead of 10-foot tall latrines and dung wagons.

At least it was finally looked at,

Ryx 1217770227|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I posted that whole mess after some hours of discussion with another fiction writer about how it might work, considering Euper and Metamor Town (Keeptown) are not within Kyia's demesne and thus don't have the advantage of her magically whisking away waste (which is considerable).

Firstly, a Roman style sewer system would work, there is only the problem of dealing with it… since no one ever has, not even Rats. Would such a construction exist one would imagine that it would be mentioned now and then. Especially when it failed (which would be somewhat often), and its discharge point would be quite an unpleasant location to be anywhere near.

As for dealing with the cleaning of the sewers (or emptying of latrines) - it would still be a viable, and effective, punitive measure that the Watch could mete out for lawbreakers.

Re: At least it was finally looked at,

MishaFox 1218265490|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

this brings up the question - where does all this sewage go?

Ryx 1218284458|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

That's the question I posed to the person I worked that out with in the first place.

Metamor is on elevation, so given the ability to construct stable sewage systems, it would all go downhill and eventually end up in… the Metamor River, with the obvious odious results.

That was the reason for the latrines, that and the fact that very very few midieval towns of Metamor's type lacked any sort of waste managment systems which resulted in streets full of feces, corpses, midden heaps, you name it. Cities in the middle ages were not pleasant places to live in so, so very many ways.

Okay, owing that we've thrown out the idea of the public latrines, perhaps there should still be some manner of waste managment operation that keeps Euper and 'Metamor Town' (Keeptowne) relatively clean, otherwise the noisome mix of so many different animal species would choke people downwind for miles (and can you imagine the fur clinging to everything?). Wagon crews would tasked with cleaning the streets of various castoff bits… night workers, by the large. It would be a punitive measure for crimes beyond minor misdemeanors but no so extreme as to require imprisonment.

Euper is, overall, rather small so could be managed by a relatively small number of central waste points… essentially junction points for the sewer system where offal can be dumped in quantity and into which some manner of water is dumped (a stream channel or somesuch). This will get rid of the waste, but hardly in an efficient or pleasant way for any one downstream.

Collecting a certain amount and removing it by wagon to be composted would be a good thing for the Keep as a whole… free fertilizer to amend the soil with each spring. Drudges (criminals) collect & compost it and it's free to anyone with a wagon who wants some rich dirt.

Re:

Tatsushu 1218376817|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'm going to start by saying we don't *need* to worry about it. It is a mediaeval fantasy setting, not an historical Sim City design. I generally applaud the effort, but I think that when we over-engineer something it is best to look at it and say 'is this necessary' (no pun intended). Personally, I think it should only matter in-so-far as a story is concerned. Furthermore, the more elaborate a construct you create to deal with the problem, the more issues you have. First, the readers aren't very familiar with your system, unless you plan to tell them about it every time. Second, the more logical inconsistencies and problems may arise.

However, if you want real world examples, my mind travels to places like India, where you still have a large population of animals roving about the streets, people who do not always feel a need to use latrines (public or private) and sewer systems that often seem inadequate to the task at hand. I've noticed that people even in Bangkok have a large 'trash debt' to work out on the streets. So what happens?

First of all, people are responsible for their neighborhood. You don't want to live in filth, so early in the morning or late at night the streets are busy with people collecting trash from the previous day and evening. They clean up the temples and community property, and trash heaps seem to be dealt with in several ways: Either someone hauls it away (a more modern solution, but I think these wagons could be used in MK), it is used as local landfill, or it is burned. Trying to haul waste out of the city is still going to end up littering it everywhere, and where do you plan to put it?

However, we are in a fantasy setting. Why not just have someone magic it away? Would it be that much to have the sewers empty into a cistern that can then be set up with runes or other such magic to clean the water before it is dumped into the river?

But really, are we expecting that modern standards of cleanliness apply to anything outside of MK and Euper? I have a hard time believing that all of the cities have some kind of system like this. As much as it offends us, I'd say that most people probably deal with it as an everyday fact of life and don't give it much thought. Likely the sewers in the more well-to-do section of town are probably better kept. Individual houses might have their own special systems, considering the magic and technology available around MK. Or they may just pay people to take care of it for them.

Also, regarding smells, fecal matter is only a small part of what you have to worry about. We have blacksmiths, and tanners, dyers (who likely use stale urine in great quantities), and all the animals (not just the Keepers).

Still, I'll reiterate that I think that overall it should probably serve the needs of plot. I'm curious why we need to define it unless someone has a particular story idea in mind. Although maybe we need to invite Mike Rowe to do a Metamor Keep episode of "Dirty Jobs"… :)

-Tatsushu

Ryx 1218459285|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I brought it up because in a midieval setting, fantasy or otherwise, waste is often a rather intrinsic part of the background 'feel' of the setting.

As hangouts for thieves, the disposessed, the Heroes hiding from pursuit.

As noisome descriptions of less well-to-do cities, ect.

It's merely propwork, it was never intended to be a primary frame upon which the weight of the setting would rest. However it works out.

Simply put, Metamor would reek to anyone coming from another city, even a major one with it's own particular stench, due to the amazing variety of disparate creatures living within and around it. Moreso if it were like India as you describe it. The citizens would become accustomed to the underlying stench, noticing only when some specie they're not exposed to often crosses their path. Those from outside the city would definately take note of it, especially when the wind shifted, and people coming from far afield would be struck by it like a kick in the teeth.

And this is for every major city that does not, as you say, dispose of their effluence into some sort of magical sump… As Metamor is one of the most powerful magic collection points on the planet this is entirely possible and feasable, and need not be something the populace is commonly aware of at all. Only, perhaps, the Thieves' guilds and waste managment types would know where the purge pit is or how it functions.

Re:

Tatsushu 1218496629|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I completely agree that the smell would be overwhelming for most. Heck, anyone who's been within a mile or so of a scared skunk—and we have how many skunk-morphs in the valley? Granted, it is generally assumed that control is possible, but I seem to recall at least one account of its use within Keep limits.

On the other side of this, perfumes and incense may be quite popular.

I do like the idea of things dealing with the gritty, less pleasant side of life at the Keep. I think that it always adds another dimension to anything: character, place, or plot, as it shows things are not always clean and nice. I just don't want to define ourselves into a literary corner.

MishaFox 1218510540|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

We HAVE to have a sewer system. All fantasy cities need a forgotten dungeon and a dark, dank sewer!

Re: Sewer of Elemental Evil...

Tatsushu 1218542585|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

A deep, dark, dank, dour, droll, deadly, dastardly, definite… (hmmm, maybe that's enough) sewer that has passages leading down into the depths of the earth. And as you descend each one you delve (ooh, another one!) deeper into more alien and hazardous terrain. And the monsters get progressively harder as you go down, until finally the Creator runs out of creatures to throw at you and you are left amidst a circle of angry cubes, spheres, and amorphous blobs!

So that's where the sewage goes… it doesn't go to the rivers, but to feed the secret ecology of an underground magic-rich environment! The magic waste of centuries combines with the more mundane variety to create an intricate land of walking mushrooms, glowing slime, and treasure! (well, treasure to some…)

Okay, enough silliness from me… for now. I like the idea of sewers and am thinking about how to use them…

Re: Sewer of Elemental Evil...

Virmir 1218591287|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Heck freakin' yes!

*votes for this one*

Re: Sewer of Elemental Evil...

MatthiasRat 1218730115|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

You forgot desolate, decrepit, disconsolate, diseased, dissolute, and dolorous.

Dominus vobiscum