Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

Summary:

Discussion of the developing Bard's maps to get a definitive vision of the community around Metamor Keep

Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

Michael Bard 1199782307|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I have a first iteration of the Metamor Keep/Town/Euper map online at http://transform.to/~mwbard/stuff/metamorscale.jpg The keep sized is based on suggestions from a big Crusader castle in the Holy Land. The size of the acreage alloted to Metamor Town and Euper is based on typical medieval urban densities and assuming a population of ~400 for Metamor Town and ~600 for Euper.

Any thoughts? Any buildings/locations that should be included in Metamor Town/Euper? If so, what are they, what do they look like, and what are they called?

Note: The keep is directly derived from BD's original map. It has been rotated and the curtain wall will likely distort a bit once I draw in the contours.

Re: Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

MishaFox 1199864862|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Looks pretty good!! The distance between Euper and Metamor town seems a bit too much. Perhaps it could be 800 - 900 feet instead? The rest looks great so far!

Re: Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

Michael Bard 1199874482|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

You're not the only one to mention it. I'll try and reduce it. The next iteration should be up tomorrow night and include details of Euper.

Re: Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

Michael Bard 1199874434|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Newest iteration and upgrade of the Metamor Complex Map: http://transform.to/~mwbard/stuff/metamorkeep3.jpg

This is, to my mind, the final version of the Keep and of Metamor Town. The various locations at http://mkworld.wikidot.com/places:metamor-keep that are outside the keep proper have been marked.

If there are any locations, or these need to be moved LET ME KNOW NOW!

The mill no longer extends outside the keep wall. Why it did originally, I have no clue. Grainaries have been located and marked as protectively near the keep. I figure they were burned as high priority targets, but have been rebuilt as high priority rebuilds (though their contents leave a bit to be desired still). The wells have been removed as they make no sense. Why drill down through limestone when one can simply pipe water brought up by Kyia and have pretty fountains that serve the same purpose?

The "mutable zone" has been clearly marked in RED as, apparently, there has been some confusion over where it extends. Technically it should reach into the town square and the "Winter Asault Memorial" but I figure that was a one time thing. If the memorial is somewhere else, PLEASE let me know now!

A lot of "Metamor Town" is rubble that has been largely cleared away at these points — it's why the town isn't crammed with buildings. The ones marked are those that either survived (towards the south end) or have been rebuilt to a habitable level. (If the entire Town was LITERALLY burned to the ground, nothing left, then there are a lot of stories which are screwed).

There is a market area just inside the "Killing Zone". Why should merchants after going through Euper, up the damn ridge, and into the town, then have to go the length of it just to reach the square? If there wasn't one before Winter Assault, there sure is now due to the necessity to bring up all the building supplies and stack them somewhere convenient before use.

NOTE: The contours are VERY rough right now. I need to squeeze them together until they cover about half the horizontal distance they do. The scale works on the CorelDraw vector original,it is likely distorted in the conversion to JPG. The final version will have a more conventional "metre stick" scale marked.

Re: Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

MishaFox 1206498868|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

OK! I was talking to Ryx last night and he brought up several good points but I'll mention just one for now.

On the map we placed the graineries next to the inner curtain wall. These tall buildings next to the curtain wall make for a perfect way to get over the wall by just climbing to the silo roof.

Oberon brought up a good point that under the right conditions granaries can explode as well!

One answer to the height issue is to have the graineries be low. Roman graineries were basically long, long buildings like a warehouse that were elevated a foot or so off the ground to allow good airflow and ventilation.

Re: Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

MishaFox 1206499500|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Here is a link to what I mean about a Roman Granery:
http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/wallnet/bird/granary.htm

Re: Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

Ryx 1206503542|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

To throw my own $0.02 into the discussion about the current map:

The mule should not be against the wall of the keep itself (due to the Mule being 'fixed' and the keep maleable. It can be moved to the curtain wall as it is not a tall building).

There is a grist mill on the map, saying 'water powered'… yet the keep is on a hilltop. Where does the water come from?

There should actually be two memorial markers; the Battle of the Gates memorial should be added.

The roads from the Killing Grounds to the memorials should not be direct, they should cut left and right across the width of the inner bailey town to slow down invaders breaching that entry point. The gates through the Killing ground should also be offset to slow down enemy entry and any attempt to bring anything larger than a charriot through during an attack (slower and much larger moving wagons can enter those gates, because they're not trying to push an attack and no defenders have strewn the killing ground with caltrops or other surprises).

The Keep actually sits atop a ridge, more correctly an escarpment, that bisects the valley at that point. The southern elevation is the 'escarpment' and slightly higher than the northern length of the valley with the Metamor ridge higher still.
As for Metamor River, well… if it flows north-south some explination on its traverse through the transition elevation should be developed. If it flows south-north that will also stand true since it cuts through the ridge either way. A mechanic needs to be implemented to prevent this from being an easy navigation point for enemy forces to bypass the Keep.

…. aaaaactually, why not just dump the Keep atop Metamor river (routing it through a deep cavern with sizable & deep lakes on both sides of the ridge where the water pools). This gives Metamor a nearly inexhaustable water supply to withstand sieges, in such quantity that it can't be easily poisoned or dammed. I am assuming that the majority of this water is glacial melt.

Re: Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

Michael Bard 1206504246|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well! Let's go through these points one at a time…

—The mule should not be against the wall of the keep itself

That is from the old map by BD and Misha and it was something I didn't want to tinker with. If a majority want me to, I'll move it.

—There is a grist mill on the map, saying 'water powered'… yet the keep is on a hilltop. Where does the water come from?

I had a lot of discussion with others about this. The final answer was that Kyia pipes it up from the depths. This powers the mill, the fountains, allows the hot and cold running water, etc. Waste water from the keep proper is piped down through Metamor Town (and the mill) and ultimately to Euper.

—There should actually be two memorial markers; the Battle of the Gates memorial should be added.

Nobody knows where the Battle of the Gates was, so where should the memorial be? Any ideas?

—The roads from the Killing Grounds to the memorials should not be direct, they should cut left and right across the width of the inner bailey town to slow down invaders breaching that entry point.

The map of the keep is just rough on details due to the scale. If you read my story "A few days in Heaven" I describe the gate, with curves, multiple doors and portculluses, and murder holes all over the place. Note also that the road from Euper to Metamor Town will switchback — haven't gotten that far yet.

—The Keep actually sits atop a ridge, more correctly an escarpment, that bisects the valley at that point. The southern elevation is the 'escarpment' and slightly higher than the northern length of the valley with the Metamor ridge higher still.

Pretty well what I've done. The keep is on the north end of the ridge, with the Ducal Keep on the highest point. Metamor Town is on the ridge. Euper is at the southern base (not on the map yet).

—As for Metamor River, well…

There was some fairly brutal discussion when I pointed out that the lack of river really toasted Metamor as a medieval community. What was finally decided was that the river flows flush against the western slope of the ridge. That has yet to be added to the map.

As to water supply, Kyia takes care of that for the keep… (see above)

Michael Bard

Re: Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

Ryx 1206505846|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Battle of the Gates;
Where it happened should not be an issue. The town square is a good public place for one. If it was not there before WA, then perhaps someone thinks to put one there sometime post-WA. It's merely for reciognition, not a historical marker.

Water;
Looks like a little bit of deus-ex-machina relying rather heavily on Kyia over the abilities of her denizens. If that's the way it's to be, so it shall be… but we should try to avoid the easy out.
If anyone has ever read Tad William's stories (Memory, Sorrow, & Thorn trilogy), they would be familiar with the subterrainian waterwheel that drives a tower high above. This could be used to power the grist mill easily enough and not be a particular weak point in the keep's defenses if the river running it has lakes capping the access points.

The reason the river should not run from through the ridge above ground is that it leaves a gaping huge hole for armies to bypass the defenders. We can leave it as is, yes, treating the western curtain wall defenses more as Harbor/Coastal positions to thwart attackers taking that route to aggress Euper and break southward.

Re: Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

Michael Bard 1206510243|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I surrender.

Ryx has, nothing wrong or against him, had the unluck of being the straw that breaks my brain. I have heard yet ANOTHER description of how things are arranged that contradict what I have been told by various others.

I am killing the mapping project until I am handed (e-mailed) a rough map that shows where the keep is, where Metamor Town is, where Euper is, where the cliffs are, where the river is, where the mill is, how it is powerdd, where the grainaries are, etc, that I am promised is THE WORD OF THE LORD and will not change.

I will just write now, use my own vision, and not worry about how it matches to anybody else's except in the grossest (i.e. most general) sense.

I apologize for wasting the communities time trying to codify the uncodifiable.

Michael Bard

P.S. This includes the economy, the valley population, workers and industry, and everything else. I'll just write and not worry about what I wrote unless another writer objects to a pre-release in progress fiction which is what I have been doing by posting WIP versions on Shifti and to the mailing list.

Re: Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

MatthiasRat 1206546160|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Calm down, Michael. This is not the end of the world, nor the end of attempts to codify these things.

First off, given the level of writing already achieved, we have no choice but to use the Pilate rule. What is the Pilate rule you ask? Simple, "What I have written, I have written." That is, what's already written is fine and dandy and does not need to be changed.

But on a go forward basis, I think it is prudent to adhere to what we can codify and agree upon. So everyone stop pulling their fur out and let's just discuss the issues as they are, without worrying about 100% fidelity to what has come before. We'll never achieve that. I know this for a fact because in a bunch of my stories, I state that the Keep is at the southern edge of the ridge, which flatly contradicts what everyone else wrote.

So, what are the issues? First, let's address the most important ones, namely the general geography of Metamor and Euper. No need to place specific buildings yet. The questions we should answer first are the following:

1. Within Metamor Valley, where is the Keep?

2. What is the East-West and North-South extent of the ridge upon which is stands?

3. Where is the river (flowing North to South) through the Valley and in relation to the Keep?

4. Where is Euper in relation to the Keep, Metamor Town, the ridge, and the river?

That's four questions. Inherent in the river question is the question on how water is brought into Metamor, but I've tried to avoid loading these questions too much. I think we can very easily agree on these. It gives us a place to begin.

My answers:

1. The Keep is in the centre of the Valley.

2. The Ridge is a north-south ridge with steep slopes on all sides except for the southern side which is at least gradual enough to be attempted by a merchant wagon. It is narrow east to west though I won't hazard any exact dimensions (not my specialty).

3. I always imagined the river was to the Keep's west (flowing from Glen Avery to Barnhard's Lake, and then past Metamor to Lorland and out of the Keep). An eastern tributary would aid the Timber crews in moving logs out of the north, but that's stepping a bit beyond the bounds of the question. This river would be close enough that limited commerce would exist, but I never imaged the river to be navigable. I do not object to the river having underwater pools that Metamor draws from. The aqueducts built to sustain this would have to be very old and magically reinforced to stave off corrosion. And yes, the river comes from snow and glacier melt.

4. Metamor Keep is at the northern extent of the ridge. Metamor Town is on the ridge to its south. Euper is at the southern base of the ridge next to the river and the eastern road.

Okay, those are my suggestions. If there are disagreements, we can work them out between us. If necessary, we can vote on matters. We are all adults and will abide by whatever decisions we come to.

So, can we get this started again?

Oh, Michael, don't throw out what you have just yet. Set it aside and we'll bring those elements back in once we get to them. I'm sure most of your map is perfectly fine just the way it is.

Dominus vobiscum

Re: Metamor Keep/Metamor Town/Euper Mapping Project

Ryx 1206575870|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

1. I agree. As the old map drawn by Misha, the keep is at a narrow point in the north-south pass, but I would imagine that the southern extent of the pass opens up to provide a larger agrarian area to support the Keep. That is all esthetic, however, and need not be expounded upon to any great degree.

2. As the pass itself goes north-south, it's difficult to have a ridge within the pass that also goes north-south, no? Looking at Misha's map, owing to the desire that Metamor River flows along the western limits of the pass, the ridge upon which the Keep sits could have a 'highest point' on which the keep sits, with a slight eastern defile and a much sharper western depression from the keep to the river basin. The location of Euper, the Keep itself, and Metamor Town I have no arguments with overall. It actually clarifies things I was confused about for years.

3. The river, well… aside from its placement, is a definate head scratcher that I will leave to others to deal with.

4. See 2.

As for things within the Keep itself, being that the actual 'Keep' (Duke's ward and the Lower Keep) is mutable any attempt at concrete mapping is an excersize in futility. Things within Metamor Town are also somewhat confusing considering all the writing that has taken place over the years mis-representing things in the Towne as Euper, and vice-versa. But, thankfully, the rebuilding post-WA will allow the entire inner Towne to be remapped according to anyone's 'concrete' conclusions as to placement of buildings.