In the IRC forum a good question came up. what happens when a person does? That is dictated by their beleifs in life.
The basic idea is a Follower goes to the Follower afterlife, while a believer in the LightBringers goes to the LB afterlife. The same applies to other religions. For those in the far east they go to whatever afterlife is there for the far east religion.
Basically it is to each his own.
does this make sense?
Wow, way to go on making a controversial decision. ;-)
In all seriousness, I think it would be rather silly to populate existence with whatever afterlifes people feel like creating. Apart from the two recognized religions, what else really is there? Do we really want to clutter things up that much? Further, people believe lots of crazy stuff about the universe. Are we suggesting that one creates their own afterlife by their belief? That's not going to fly.
I suggest we be judicious in what happens in this regard if it is really important. I know Hallan has plans, and I have some plans, but let's not make too much of a mess of things in the hereafter.
Dominus tecum
I disagree, Matt. This discussion came up in response to Tigner's plans with the Eastern gods. If the Eastern gods are really the Lightbringer gods with different names, then much of what he's been planning gets screwed over by the Starchild happenings. We were discussing ways to allow various religions (each with their own afterlives) to co-exist.
In all seriousness, I think it would be rather silly to populate existence with whatever afterlifes people feel like creating. Apart from the two recognized religions, what else really is there? Do we really want to clutter things up that much?
Honestly, I think having separate Lightbringer and Follower afterlives is already silly. ;) This seems to me the best way to allow for both.
Further, people believe lots of crazy stuff about the universe. Are we suggesting that one creates their own afterlife by their belief? That's not going to fly.
Why not? Obviously restrictions would apply (no coming back as a giant dragon). But if they're dead and in another world, I don't think it matters much. Furthermore, it's not exactly easy to make up whatever you want and honestly believe it. Belief tends to reflect what a large group of others believes.
I would even take it a step further even and suggest the gods and various powers associated with each religion originates from the collective peoples' faith itself. The Followers and the Lightbringers have their thing going on in their spheres of influence, and the eastern gods have theirs. No one's stepping on anyone else's toes.
And I'm not suggesting anyone just introduce any religion and/or crazy afterlife they want. Everything posted continues to be moderated by the community. (Though we've already had a few cases of minor religions introduced in the past two years.)
Anyway, just some thoughts on how to explain MK's already complex multi-religion/god/afterlife system and keep it open so proponents of one religion aren't stepping on the feet of others.
That's what i wanted to comment.
The Lightbringer gods have as a source of power the faith of their followers, as it was already stated. It is a fact then that they will go to the afterlife expected by said faith.
The same can be said to other beliefs. We could assume that, taking into account that the deities are proved to be real in this world (Walking in earth every now and then and all that), the fate that would await you after dying will depend on which one you worship.
The gods of the Pantheon are higher, non-mortal beings, so it is in theory possible for other beings foreign to the LB hierarchy to exist on their own plane and have their own followers in the mortal world.
Of course everything will get moderated. Is not like the setting will benefit from a dozen different faiths…
I should chime in here with my perspective on the Lightbringer afterlife.
As soon as we established that the Lightbringer gods were, essentially, frauds, it followed naturally that the afterlife they managed was equally fraudulent. The Nine Hells are not a true, final destination for the souls who acknowledge the gods; rather, they are enormous soul traps, designed to extract power from the departed before they pass on to whatever fate awaits them. The Lightbringers are aware of this, though they don't talk a lot about it — hence the concept of Oblivion.
I would strongly suggest that we remain officially agnostic about what happens to souls in their true, final disposition. Maybe they're recycled. Maybe they reunite with the All-Father, or join with the essence of one of the lesser deities. Maybe they pass into afterlives that are so remote from the physical world that they can't come back. Our characters might have all sorts of ideas about such things, but the point is that nobody knows for sure.
Any afterlife that characters can come back from, speak from, or otherwise pass information about back to the mortal realm should be provisional and temporary.1 The souls of the dead shouldn't remain forever in any plane that people can find out about; eventually they should move on to a stage that preserves the mystery of the eternal.
My objection to this is philosophical. It smacks too much of relativism for me to be comfortable with it.
Further, I oppose the notion that a religious group's deity takes its power from the faith of its adherents. That is not remotely how I wrote the Ecclesia, and I don't think that they should be pigeon-holed because somebody else is writing about some other set of gods not related to my own writing!
I don't think that is a fair way of doing things.
Dominus tecum
My objection to this is philosophical. It smacks too much of relativism for me to be comfortable with it.
I'm not sure what that is, but basically what I see in this decision a way for everyone to get their way, as opposed to just a few. I don't think bringing philosophical arguments into the mix is a good idea here. (We're not talking about reality, after all.)
Further, I oppose the notion that a religious group's deity takes its power from the faith of its adherents. That is not remotely how I wrote the Ecclesia, and I don't think that they should be pigeon-holed because somebody else is writing about some other set of gods not related to my own writing!
Well from the point of view of the Ecclesia, it wouldn't appear that way at all. In fact, no one would know what's going on. I'll definitely second Raven's stressing the point that "no one really knows". None of this would affect anything you've written. (Nor will it affect the multiple other religions written in— through this we're just allowing them to exist as well.)
Dunno… just my thoughts on how to keep things open for everyone. I've a bit of experience in world design and this seems to me the best way to explain the multiple religions we already have and keep people happy. :)
We are talking about reality. The reality of Metamor Keep. And I am trying to keep it consistent. And that includes philosophy.
But if this is your attempt to keep everyone happy, making truth relative to everything, then you are definitely not making me happy.
Let me explain better so that you understand what you are truly suggesting. Raven has pointed out that the Lightbringer Pantheon are all frauds. They claim to be gods, but they are really frauds. They are very powerful, but have been milking their believers to attain that power for thousands of years. In other words, they have no power of themselves, but must extract it from others. Hence, the purpose behind the Starchild Arc which has been so recently under discussion.
And you want to make all religions effectively the exact same deal. All religions are now to be considered power-grabbing schemes by fraudulent deities. This is utterly unacceptable to me.
Instead, let us consider where Raven, Ryx, myself, and others have been handling the two main religions already in existence. The Lothanasi recognize Illuvatar as the "All-Creator". Vinsah/Elvmere and Akabaieth have made the connection that Illuvatar and Eli are one and the same being, just called by different names (a phenomenon that has occurred many times in our own world, the concept of the one who created everything, including the lesser 'gods' mankind spent more of its time talking about in myth).
The religion of the Steppelanders is essentially Lothanasi (although the names they use are different). Ditto for the Binoq. Apparently so too are Tigner and his eastern gods.
The way things are now, there is a sense of mystery surrounding the exact nature of the heavens and so forth. Let us leave it that way. Whether or not Yahshua is truly the Son of Eli (and consubstantial with Eli the all creator) should not be explicitly defined either way. Raven has defined the Lothanasi Pantheon as frauds himself, so it should be acceptable to the rest of us.
But ending the mystery surrounding other religions for the sake of definition in something that doesn't need it creates more problems than it purports to solve. Leave the mystery. Do not make Yahshua and/or Eli some D&D deity. That isn't what MK needs to be.
Dominus tecum
Well, it seems there were parts of this I didn't quite understand, and for that I apologize. I should note that the relativism idea was in part inspired by Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series.
Anyway, I'm fine with leaving the mystery and things as they are for the Lightbringers and Ecclesia. The conversation was originally borne out of concern about how the Starchild arc would affect still-germinating plans for stories involving the eastern gods. There's also the additional headache of trying to shoehorn the LB gods into various roles in the eastern pantheon.
What I would really prefer is to keep them separate, perhaps even with a touch of xenophobia or such to keep them in the east. However, I do realize that in a shared setting, compromise is often key. If having them separate would not work, could you please explain why you believe that would not work? n.n Thanks ^_^
In what way do you mean separate? What do you want them to be?
We can do a lot of things in MK. Some definition isn't a bad thing. It just depends on what you want to do and whether or not something already exists in MK for you.
Dominus tecum
So Matt, what you're proposing here is that the Ecclessia and Lothanasa, as well as other religions acknowledges the same "creator", but each one with their own vision of it, and perhaps also dogmas?
As you said that is what happens in the real world, where many religions have/had the same concept of a "Creator", but with varying details, or so to say.
That is, Eli, Illuvatar, Yahveh, etc.
Different names, different beliefs, different dogmas, but none of them "true" per se. But the "Creator" is there. That's what i think it may be good for the setting
I think it's a good idea leaving the real fate of the mortal souls as a mystery.
That being said, the same way the LB pantheon keeps them in their own planes for a while after said mortals die, other potential deities may do the same, and not necessarily with the same objective (Gaining power).
For example, lets assume that Tigner's eastern gods are separate beings from the LB ones.
The LB gods are higher beings, so in the same way others may exist.
These eastern gods may have their own realms where they may take the souls of those faithful to them. To reward them, or to punish them, doesn't matter what.
But also then, instead of keeping the souls captive the same way the LB pantheon does, they may simply reward their followers in life (Like Velena does), and not interfering in any way with their afterlife destination.
Going back to IRL comparison, many people have also worshiped not only "invisible" or otherworldly gods, but also actual tangible and recognizable people or things.
Egyptians saw their Pharaohs as gods if I'm not wrong, so following this example there may be a place where a really powerful wizard, or even a higher being in the mortal realm is considered a god by some people (And honestly, in a medieval setting that's nothing weird at all).
Just an after-midnight brainstorming, but i think it's a good idea :)
Where were these Eastern gods during the wars between the Heavens and Hells? What were they doing before that, when the Titans exerted their will over the entire planet and the aedra and daedra formed an alliance to unseat them? What are they doing now, and how have they resisted the Pantheon when other, older pantheons have fallen to their dominance?
The aedra and daedra are not regional beings that arose in western Galendor; they are extraterrestrial beings that came to this world long before human civilization had ever touched that continent. Their interest in the world is not limited to one small corner of it; they get power from worshipers anywhere on the planet, and from anyone who acts in accordance with their portfolios. The entire system of divine politics was built with the guiding assumption that the the war between the aedra and the daedra is global in scope. Eli is far above their conflict and may be the Creator-god, so he is outside their struggle and unreachable by either side. Adding in additional deities who exist on the same level as the Pantheon, though, is going to make problems.
Unless these Eastern gods are completely limited to one very small territory, AND can either hide from the aedra and daedra or are strong enough to shut them out, they should have found themselves in conflict with one side or another (or both) well before now. We'd have to retcon several thousand years of history to figure out how they fit in and why they haven't affected things beyond their little territory. That sounds like a big ugly mess.
I wouldn't have any problem with Shinto-style animism in the Eastern Regions; such minor local deities would be beneath the notice of the Pantheon, and may even be Artela's descendants. Likewise, a Buddhism-analogue could have its ascended masters (perhaps some form of magic at work, turning humans into something immortal) and ancestral spirits (souls that were bound to the land by their sense of love and duty, or by some kind of magical nexus). But having another pantheon of gods standing alongside the Lothanasi pantheon, competing for the hearts and souls of the faithful, creates a lot of logic gaps in MK's history. What's more, it doesn't strike me as very authentically "Eastern."
Ah, thank you very much for the clarification, Raven. n.n
I wouldn't have any problem with Shinto-style animism in the Eastern Regions; such minor local deities would be beneath the notice of the Pantheon, and may even be Artela's descendants. Likewise, a Buddhism-analogue could have its ascended masters (perhaps some form of magic at work, turning humans into something immortal) and ancestral spirits (souls that were bound to the land by their sense of love and duty, or by some kind of magical nexus).
I was actually heavily leaning toward this kind of approach. Local minor dieties, animism, ancestor worship, that kind of thing. I wasn't sure how to approach this since one of your previous comments (below) seemed to me to rule out visting or being visited by one's ancestors.
Any afterlife that characters can come back from, speak from, or otherwise pass information about back to the mortal realm should be provisional and temporary. The souls of the dead shouldn't remain forever in any plane that people can find out about; eventually they should move on to a stage that preserves the mystery of the eternal.
I think your suggestions for "souls that were bound to the land by their sense of love and duty, or by some kind of magical nexus," gives me a few ideas on how I might handle that. I think rules and limitations for any sort of visitations should exist, of course. Perhaps strong emotions tying someone to a place or a magical nexus as you mentioned. Not all ancestors will be able to directly influence things in the mortal realm, but all should be able to hear the prayers and conversation offered up to them at certain locations, such as at their graves.
But having another pantheon of gods standing alongside the Lothanasi pantheon, competing for the hearts and souls of the faithful, creates a lot of logic gaps in MK's history. What's more, it doesn't strike me as very authentically "Eastern."
I can certainly understand that, thank you. n.n I hope this is mostly coherent, I really need to stop staying up so late. ;)
I myself find the universalism idea more interesting, where there are lots of different beings and none of them are all powerful, though certainly some are more powerful than others. However, in an infinite universe there is room for just about anything, including some gods that are fixed in power and some that derive power from their followers. I will not speculate on whether there is room for a singular god that literally is all powerful as this tend to lead to people arguing about nasty stuff.
"Everyone seems to think they know the answer, but I do not know which, if any, are correct." ~Anonymous
The Pantheon's nature as Johnny-come-lately frauds has some bearing on my own project. While I was trying to figure out how to salvage my work in the face of the Pantheon NOT being deposed, I came across Jon Sleeper's stories. I had my answer in the ancient race that he had introduced. The Tened, and their guardian spirit/totem/deity, predated the Pantheon's arrival to the world. Shortly after the foreign gods arrived, the Tened became extinct after a series of plagues swept through the population. The guardian spirit, faced with fading away, re-purposed himself to be the totem of all creatures that laid amniotic eggs. The spirit, who would one day take the name Troud, blames the Pantheon, especially Tallakath, for the destruction of his people.
For countless millennia Troud has bided his time, waiting for an opportunity to have a people again. The events that started with the Battle of Three Gates and culminated with the destruction of Yajakali have provided him with that opportunity.
Ooooh, you know I want to see what comes to pass with this! :-)
Dominus tecum
This Tened idea raises an interesting question; exactly when did the pantheon establish itself on Earth?
I'd hazard a guess to somewhere around 10,000 years before the current day. The (d)aedra's arrival brought about the Tened's extinction. Enough time must have passed for them to become a forgotten people to all save the most learned scholars, but not so much time that their ruined cities and monuments have become nothing but dust and gravel.
The Pantheon came to Earth sometime before 15,000 years ago. The Lost Kingdom was influenced heavily by the Titans, and that was the human kingdom that was dominant around -15,000 CR. The Aedra and Daedra had their war with the titans around -14,000 CR, not long after the Lost Kingdom became, well, lost. :)
I always got the impression that Jon's reptile-folk were supposed to be actual dinosaurs. If that's the case, then the Tened probably lived millions of years ago, and were wiped out before humans were even walking erect.
No, they were descended from dinosaurs. Jon's amulet is an ancestral form, used for combat.
They couldn't have been extinct for millions of years simply because there literally would be no artifacts or ruins left over, everything would be dust. Fifteen thousand years is at the outside of what I'd think that the tougher monuments and artifacts could last, but it's possible.
No, they were descended from from dinosaurs. Jon's amulet is an ancestral form, used for combat.
Ahh, gotcha.
They couldn't have been extinct for millions of years simply because there literally would be no artifacts or ruins left over, everything would be dust. Fifteen thousand years is at the outside of what I'd think that the tougher monuments and artifacts could last, but it's possible.
Don't forget that strong enchantments preserve things against decay. The Journal of Anef the First dates back to the Kingdom of the Nine (ca. -11,000 CR) and Elemacil was forged during the War of the Great Darkness (ca. -5,000 CR), and both are still in excellent condition with no hints at their extreme age.
So there is no telling how much of their stuff is still laying around in some out of the way place waiting to be discovered like Jon's amulet. I do remember that some Tened ruins do exist in the valley. I seem to remember reading that in a story somewhere.
Hmm! I can make use of this information. Thanks.
