The Starchild Arc

Summary:

With Raven's loss of interest in Metamor Keep, how are we to proceed?

The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1248387474|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

There is a rumor going around that Raven has no intention of ever finishing the Starchild Arc. This has major consequences for several Metamor Keep writers, notably Hallan and myself. Also, Christof Bradford's stories are all set after Starchild has been done and under the assumption that they are done!

So, if this rumor is true (please enlighten us, Raven), we need to determine where to go from here. Without the Starcihld, Drift's entire arc needs a completely new climax, Elvmere's arc has to be completely reworked (and I've no idea how at present), not to mention poor Christof with his Raven character who's current fate will need to be redesigned.

However, perhaps these are acceptable losses. If there is a desire not to do the Starchild (if Raven won't), then we need to determine what to do in 708 CR instead. Certainly, if we do want to do the Starchild, we'll need to get together and find a way to write it without Raven. and even if we do the Starchild, I know there are some details of it that I'd love to change.

I'm putting all this out on the table. Only Raven can tell us whether or not he'll move forward with the Starchild. But if Raven won't, the question becomes, what do we do with it?

We've never been in a position before where a major plot arc may suddenly go up in smoke. I think we need to discuss and prepare if that happens.

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

Pontos 1248390342|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ryx mentioned on the #MKGuild that Raven was only postponing the Starchild Arc in favor of the MK City setting. So it's "On Hold" rather than dropped.

Of course better to hear it from Raven himself than to keep making assumptions.

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1248390386|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hi all,

I should post a response here to clear up a few things.

I've had some conversations lately with other members of the MK inner circle. These conversations led me to believe that the Starchild arc was increasingly being seen as a liability: The storyline's existence was causing problems for the other authors and creating complications that were seen as undesirable.

This came on top of the long-established fact that my vision of the future of Metamor does not match with what Matty and some others would like to see. The last two installments of the Starchild arc received virtually no response when I released them to the MK writers' community in 2003 & 2004, and I haven't heard much more since they were released to the general public. Matty sent me a response to "A Presence of Thieves" a couple of months ago, but that was all. The only author who's shown any interest lately in interacting with my characters has been Hallan.

In light of these facts, I came to the conclusion that I'd lost my relevance in MK. I don't really blame anyone for this — I was occupied first with grad school and then with Metamor City, and haven't been able to be a really active presence in the community like I used to be. Besides, my interests have drifted away from the furry genre, and MK has increasingly become more furry-centric than transformation-centric.

I still hope to tell the rest of Merai's story someday, but the last thing I want is to be a source of division in the world that I put so much sweat, joy and tears into helping to build. We already knew that the timeline was going to split between the future Matty envisioned and my Metamor City timeline. If it will make it easier for everyone else, I'm willing to move up the date of that timeline split so that the conclusion of the Starchild arc belongs only to the Metamor City timestream. That would allow Matty and others to work toward building the future they want for MK without my stuff getting in the way.

For the foreseeable future my writing efforts are going to be focused on The Metamor City Podcast; that's where I feel like I have the most to say at present, and I have an active audience there that is keeping me creatively energized. I don't know when I'll have the time to return to Merai's story — and I'm increasingly convinced that the outline I'd originally planned for it would not do the story justice, anyway. That story is important enough to me that I want to make sure I do it right, when the time comes.

I offer no advice on how to proceed. I love this world, and I love the characters I've created there, but I won't hold the rest of the community hostage to a creative vision that others can't get behind. I detest "drama" and don't want to be at the center of it, so it seems like the best thing I can do is focus on my own projects and get out of everyone else's way. I say this not to be petulant or to solicit pity — it's just pragmatism. If you have five or six people in charge of a creative project, and one person's vision doesn't line up with the others, the responsible thing for the one to do is bow out gracefully and with a minimum of fuss.

I'll be happy to answer questions, or provide my opinion if it is requested. If you wish it, I will provide you with a copy of my outline for the last two installments of the arc, so you can see what I had in mind. But as to the details — what to keep, what to change, what to throw away — I leave that in the capable hands of you, my friends.

I wish you all happiness and creative fulfillment in your writing endeavors — because, if you don't have those, then what's the point?

Best,

Raven

Re: The Starchild Arc

Kit Sune 1248400461|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ah, that IS a pity then. Having read your arcs from the very start I was hoping to see it through to the end. Also if you had been a bit more active I would have asked for either a cameo or to use some of your characters (most likely the latter). Also, for the record, from what I understand, everyone has a different future in mind for MK. Some futures lay closer to others, but no two are actually the same. As such, Matt may have a different view on it than you do, but his is no more canon than yours. Anyway, whatever you do, you'll probably remain the expert on the lothanasi religion. As such, I wanted to ask something I was curious about. How often do the aedra have children with mortals? Is it so rare that each one is a major occurence and impacts the world? Is it more frequent where there's probably several running around unnoticed? Or is it somewhere in between, such as the Greek mythology has it, where they are relatively common but each becomes a hero or legend of note?

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1248416113|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Anyway, whatever you do, you'll probably remain the expert on the lothanasi religion. As such, I wanted to ask something I was curious about. How often do the aedra have children with mortals? Is it so rare that each one is a major occurence and impacts the world? Is it more frequent where there's probably several running around unnoticed? Or is it somewhere in between, such as the Greek mythology has it, where they are relatively common but each becomes a hero or legend of note?

The deities used to have children with mortals much more often than they do now. It was especially common in the era before the War of the Great Darkness, and to a lesser extent in the time between the withdrawal of the Elves and the rise of the Lothanasi Order. Merai was more than just half-divine; she was the combination of divine blood and a generations-long genetics experiment to create exactly the sort of weapon the gods needed. Children of the deities always have a lot of power, much like the Greek heroes, but it expresses itself in different ways, and some never reach their full potential.

Children of the lesser aedra and daedra are much more common than those who are the direct offspring of the deities themselves. These individuals have some marks of their supernatural heritage but aren't overwhelmingly powerful (at least not by virtue of birth alone). Incubi and succubae are special cases: one parent is always mortal, and a child born to a mortal woman will appear human until it reaches puberty. At some point after that its powers begin to manifest, and once it feeds on enough sexual energy, it will metamorphose into a full daedra.

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1248402822|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I am truely sorry to see this happen. It is a shame with a writers vision fails to come to fruition. I do hope you will write the story arc anyway even if only as Background for your wonderful MK2K stories.

To be honest I have been expecting this split for quite a while. Just too many people going in too many different directions. For now Metamor Keep and Metamor city are spliting in different directions at this point. Star Child happens in MK2K but does not in MK. How does that sound to you?

One of the problems with a shared story universe is that not all peoples ideas can come to completion. We had Phil drop out of MK for the same reasons as you - vision differences. His steam punk idea was cool but just not workable.

You are a fine writer Raven and are STILL MOST WELCOME here in Metamor and I do hope you keep on writing!!!!!!!

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1248410072|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

So this all brings up one basic question - what do we keep? Do we keep doing Starchild? Or just drop it?
Please give me you opinions!

Re: The Starchild Arc

LurkingWolf 1248411215|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I think it would be better to keep the current Starchild arc, only editing the small things that people have expressed opinions that they don't like (such as the termination of the Lothanasi pantheon). That way, most of the stories that are dependent on the Starchild arc, as well as the major character development contained in that arc, could remain. I think that most of the perceived issues with the storyline could be resolved with minimal effort. After all, the exact purpose of the Starchild has not yet been fully revealed, so reworking it slightly to fit everyone's tastes shouldn't mess up anything, really. And, in the end, it would fix a lot of the problems that dropping the arc entirely would cause, and would sound considerably less retarded than building up to a flat note. :P

Just my two cents. A good number of people seem to have based stories around the events that lead to the Day of the Starchild, so I see no point in removing the arc. We can finish it if we want to, using our own version instead of Raven's, and having very little problems with dependent storylines.

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1248416257|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I do hope you will write the story arc anyway even if only as Background for your wonderful MK2K stories.

Thanks, Chris. I hope to do so, someday.

Star Child happens in MK2K but does not in MK. How does that sound to you?

That's fine with me, but others appear to have a different opinion (see below). As I said, I'll be happy to make my outline available. I even have the first half of "Shadow Hunt" written, if anyone wants to finish it — though it's a very rough first draft.

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1248417078|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I think it would be better to keep the current Starchild arc, only editing the small things that people have expressed opinions that they don't like (such as the termination of the Lothanasi pantheon).

I should point out here that the termination of the pantheon — or, rather, their being cast down to Earth — was actually the whole point of the story arc.

Here's a few possible ways I could see things playing out in alternate timelines:

1.) Merai does what Kammoloth wanted her to do: strips the daedra lords of power and gives it to the aedra. The daedra are cast to earth and the aedra are left as the decisive victors in the celestial war. What happens then? Do the gods begin to take a heavier hand in human affairs? Do they split into factions over their differences, leading to conflicts among the "good" guys about the right way to shepherd humanity? Do the Lothanasi interpret this as a mandate to impose their vision on the world? And what sort of damage will the daedra lords do in the effort to regain their power?

2.) Merai is corrupted by Suspira when Alarun's Lothanasi capture her. (It's been hinted from the beginning that she was vulnerable to this.) Kammoloth never appears to her to tell her about the master plan, so the Day of the Starchild never happens. The daedra lords continue their slow, quiet takeover of the Lothanasi — unless Suspira gets ambitious and decides to use her new pawn to work a power play. Raven's Lightbringers will continue to be isolated and marginalized as the daedra work to shape Sathmore into a new dark empire.

3.) Merai doesn't fall to the dark side, but rescue doesn't come soon enough. She is crucified as a heretic by Alarun and the other corrupted LBs. The rest plays out much like #2.

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1248417254|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Sure! Please send me the outline and what you have written.

I do not know what will happen as I want to see what all the other people in MK think. this is a shared universe.

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1248417887|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Will do. I'm on vacation until the end of the month but I'll send you all I've got when I get back.

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1248477219|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I hope you have a lovely vacation!

As for specific conflicts between your Starchild Arc and my plans, really there is only one thing that stands out. You wanted to have the Southern and Outer Midlands band together to attack Metamor. This is definitely moving against my plotlines where I've been deliberately driving the Southern Midlands and Outer Midlands to unremitting hostility to each other so that Metamor Keep can step into the power gap.

My goal has always been for the Cursed to stretch out their influence beyond the Valley so that more and more stories can take place not only at Metamor but outside and beyond it.

You have wanted to isolate Metamor from all the other Lothanasi. Fair enough. But Kelewair and Duke Verdane are Followers, and while Verdane has no love of Metamor, he is not going to join Duke Otakar of Salinon in anything so long as Otakar holds his son prisoner.

Now, I'm sure we could put our heads together and figure a way for your attack to realistically happen. We're both clever folks after all! But I think it may be just better if we find a way not to do that if you aren't going to be able to actively write in MK anymore.

As for your three possibilities, I'd like to see more exploration of what they could each mean. In your last posted story, we see Merai beginning to believe in Yahshua, so it's hard to imagine her not trying to turn things in that direction, even if she does what Kammaloth wants (I'm very interested in what a rejuvinated pantheon could mean for the setting, especially as it relates to Elvmere and his role).

The only other aspect of your Starchild Arc plans was the creation of the Meriast religion. That always rankled me, but there's plenty of things in MK that rankle me, so I tend not to object when that's all I've got to say about it. ;-)

So please, let's continue this discussion and figure out where we want the Pantheon and Merai to go, so we can figure out where Metamor will go!

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

LurkingWolf 1248494986|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

If it is possible for this to be banged out together, with Raven involved, then I'll go for that. I have no desire for Raven to leave MK, I really liked a good bit of the Starchild arc, especially the latest stories. :D Would be good to be able to resolve differences too, but that's just me :D.

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1248528599|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The more I think about it, after having conversations with Ryx and others last night, the more I like possibility number 2 you made, Raven, the one about Suspira corrupting Merai, Raven and the good Lightbringers becoming increasingly isolated, and Sathmore turning into a dark Empire. It has the advantages of giving us another villain that could run for quite some time, somebody other than Nasoj who could plausibly invade Metamor and present a real threat to them (since Nasoj's power is essentially broken post-WA). Ryx and I hashed out some good plotlines for our characters in this too.

However, there's still plenty to discuss and determine. I think we will have to wait until Raven gets back and presents his outline for events so we know how things were intended, what people believe would and should really happen, and we can go from there.

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1248476720|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well, I'm pleased that generated some fast responses!

You see, people are interested in this plot arc, Raven! I don't get that much commentary on my stuff either when I take them public. I have only had a couple comments on LToY so far, and all of them having to do with the "possible MK future" having discovered gunpowder.

Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing your next story, Shadow Hunt. I've always enjoyed your writing.

I certainly never wanted you to leave Metamor. But as you say, your interests have moved elsewhere so it is understandable. For a time, I was more focused on Paradise than I was on Metamor. In some ways I still am, but for the moment Metamor has my attention.

The point is, I want you to be involved with Metamor Keep as much as you wish to be involved.

I'll reply with specifics in terms of arc development in just a moment.

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1248492224|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Some really interesting ideas! I agree with Matt about the two parts of the Midlands ganging up together as not being workable. But what if the Sathmore tried to invade? they have the military force to do it.

Also a split in the Lightbringer faith sounds interesting pitting the two groups against each other. And what effect would this have on the Follower/Rebuilder conflict?

Just some ideas.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Kit Sune 1248510267|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ok, after some late night hashing with Ryx, I came up with an alternate idea where the arc goes through at a much muted tone. Yes the fourteen gods are torn from heaven and hell and left stranded on earth. However, this does not become common knowledge. The gods themselves aren't clearly fallen and not even the members of the lothanasi faith notice because the pantheon left behind their children. This multitude of angels and demons and whatnot are left to run heaven and hell to keep it from collapsing. They run the affairs the true pantheon normally would at a severely decreased level in power. Unlike the true pantheon they cannot gain power from the souls or from worship, but they can still keep the lothanasi faith from outright collapsing by continuing to answer prayers and essentially impersonating the pantheon. This combined with the obscurity of the event leaves most people living their own lives. The pantheon is still wandering around affecting things, but without their ability to manipulate fate or gather a large following.

I suppose Suspira and Klepnos might run slightly amok, but they did that anyway. Yajiit and Oblineth, being the anti-social goddesses they are, would seek some secluded place to live in peace. Similarly the rest of the pantheon would go about their business unable to return to their thrones (though they may not know this and attempt to do so anyway). Just how much they could do would be up to debate, but if need be they can be completely cut off from fate altogether. Crops that come to bounty due to rain from Dvalin get destroyed by pests later on, ships crashed by Wvelkim are left with everyone surviving, etc. Everything they do being undone after a short period of time. This second paragraph is more speculation than anything, the main point I'm proposing is up top. And remember, it's just a proposition.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Pontos 1248539279|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I like the impersonation part of the pantheon.
Given that the fall of the Pantheon would not become known, to avoid those faithful to the Lothanasi to lose their faith by seeing their gods cast down to earth, those lesser divine beings still in heaven and hell would simply cover this fact. A "conspiracy" if you will, but not in the true sense of the word.

Now, about Raven's possibility number 2, that would mean the Starchild day not taking place and the Daedra potentially gaining power in a slow pace, right? What would happen with the Aedra in said situation?

The dark Sathmore empire sounds good since, as Matt mentioned, it will give a new enemy and a lot of story options.

I'm also interested to know what will exactly be of the Pyralis empire after the fall of Marzak. My stories will be tied with it, so a dark Sathmore empire will certainly affect them. Have you thought about that, Matt?

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1248924025|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Given that the fall of the Pantheon would not become known, to avoid those faithful to the Lothanasi to lose their faith by seeing their gods cast down to earth, those lesser divine beings still in heaven and hell would simply cover this fact. A "conspiracy" if you will, but not in the true sense of the word.

Important point about this idea: with the gods themselves walking the earth, wouldn't the word spread pretty fast that they were around? Seems like they'd want to make it known that their traitorous subordinates had supplanted them, unless they had a good reason not to.

Now, about Raven's possibility number 2, that would mean the Starchild day not taking place and the Daedra potentially gaining power in a slow pace, right? What would happen with the Aedra in said situation?

The Aedra would be in a bit of a tight spot. Kammoloth, Samekkh and Dokorath were the masterminds behind the Starchild, and they didn't tell the other aedra what they were planning. (The other aedra knew that the Starchild was important and that she was supposed to spell the end of the great war, but they weren't told the details for reasons of operational security.) With their ace in the hole suddenly co-opted, they're going to need to find another way to counteract the daedra's plans without breaking the treaty and setting off the apocalypse.

It's likely that the aedra will fall into some squabbling over the best way to proceed. Dokorath will want to push for an overt military solution, raising up holy warriors to oppose the servants of the daedra. Samekkh will start scheming to use one of Merai's own children as their new pawn, since sooner or later she's almost certainly going to breed. (Probably with the Sathmoran Emperor, since Suspira will use her to seduce him and turn him to the dark side.) Akkala and Velena will want to find a way to redeem Merai. Artela, one of the more devious minds among the aedra, will advocate taking advantage of the infighting among the daedra, playing Suspira's and Lilith's factions against each other to wear them down and keep Ba'al from being able to pull off any sort of unified action among the daedra's servants.

Kammoloth himself is likely to be depressed and indecisive for a while: Merai's betrayal will hit him hard. She's his own daughter, after all, even if she didn't realize it.

—Raven

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1249004329|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

One of the "holy warriors" Dokorath might tap is his new adherent Weyden who has taken Dokorath as his guiding light as it were. That and Jessica will certainly be unhappy with the chaos this can cause with her faith.

Of course, one other thing that I've realized is that if Suspira and Lilith are going to be fighting one another, then the place smack dab between their forces will be Metamor. That's right, Metamor becomes a fulcrum between the battle of Lilith's forces in the Giantdowns, and Suspira's forces in Sathmore. Suddenly, Metamor, thinking that they might finally have some peace from the north find that things are actually worse!

I hope everyone stops to consider what that could mean for their characters and the chances they have of being heroes.

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

Kit Sune 1249005775|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

In answer to your question of how the gods could walk the earth without being known and causing chaos as a result… there are several things to point out. First of all, this suggestion is mainly a way for the arc to go through while compromising the main issue that other people have, aka the rampant chaos and the subsequent breaking of the world.

Second (least likely, but just throwing it out there), as originally suggested, their control over fate has been cut off with their descent to the mortal plane. This means that drawing attention to themselves MIGHT not be the best idea and that perhaps they even CAN'T draw attention to themselves in any meaningful way because their actions become undone.

Third, and more likely, they probably WILL have their reasons. If they don't know they cannot return to their thrones, they may attempt to keep the faith in their positions strong so that when they DO return it's not at a diminished power. If they do know, then they may be too busy with their schemes to bother or care. Furthermore it's the daedra who will be causing more trouble over this and the majority of the populace doesn't really worship them anyway. I get the idea the aedra will be a bit more cooperative knowing their 'imposters' are just trying to keep things from falling apart.

Fourth, and most likely of all, the 'imposters' aren't going to just sit around. Maybe the aedra are cooperating with each other, but any daedra neccessary to be silenced via plot hammer can have an 'imposter' who claims there is a very strong wizard in the mortal realms pretending to be him/her. Basically the 'imposters' are where the real deal is supposed to be, so they can get away with saying the real deal gods (stuck on earth) are the 'real' imposters.

Probably there will be a combination of all the above in the implementation of my solution so this excellent plot point for the universe doesn't instead just smash the setting into something completely different. Instead of changing the entire social structure of the world, we are simply introducing fourteen vortexes of energy that can affect it in various ways.

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249006194|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

My personal recommendation would be to delay the gods' fall rather than have it happen in a half-assed way. When Merai absorbs the power of the gods, she will also gain the insight necessary to see the problems that would be caused by allowing the junior aedra and daedra to remain in control of the Heavens and Hells. The whole reason for judging the gods is to punish them for setting themselves in a place over humanity that they aren't entitled to. Replacing them with a new set of heirs who are just as manipulative and are all lying is not a solution to the problem.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Kit Sune 1249024833|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well the point would be that they can't DO anything with their power. They may be as (if not more) manipulative, but they can't really do anything except keep the afterrealms and the lothanasi faith from crumbling. Besides, even if the pantheon is thrown to the earth in a full blown way the lesser gods will STILL be up in the heavens and hells to run things. You'd need to dismantel the afterrealms entirely or kick ALL the gods out for that to work, both of which come with their OWN major set of problems. If there's this much uproar about fourteen gods running around can you imagine the chaos fourteen THOUSAND would cause? Or even fourteen hundred! Not to mention all the souls that would be left in limbo now that they have nowhere to go. If you're going to replace a system, you need something put in its place so everything doesn't fall apart. I think the main objective to the starchild arc is that it breaks a fundamental part of the universe. I'm just trying to find a way where it can go through without that happening.

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249028948|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well the point would be that they can't DO anything with their power. They may be as (if not more) manipulative, but they can't really do anything except keep the afterrealms and the lothanasi faith from crumbling.

That's the essential problem: beings gaining human worship who don't merit it, and playing with the lives of mortals for their own gain. The eighteen deities of the Pantheon (not sure why everyone keeps saying fourteen) are only the biggest part of the problem. If the corrupt system remains, the problem hasn't been solved, and there's plenty that the lesser aedra and daedra will be able to do to make things bad for humanity without the gods' guidance. Leaving these junior godlings in charge will not accomplish Iluvatar/Eli's goals for the Starchild — at least not as Merai understands those goals — so she wouldn't do it that way. Period.

Besides, even if the pantheon is thrown to the earth in a full blown way the lesser gods will STILL be up in the heavens and hells to run things. You'd need to dismantel the afterrealms entirely or kick ALL the gods out for that to work, both of which come with their OWN major set of problems. If there's this much uproar about fourteen gods running around can you imagine the chaos fourteen THOUSAND would cause? Or even fourteen hundred! Not to mention all the souls that would be left in limbo now that they have nowhere to go.

With all respect, Kit Sune, you haven't done your research on the Starchild Arc and its aftereffects. Only the eighteen gods are cast to Earth; Merai throws the other aedra and daedra into the Dreamlands, a realm of infinite space that includes the Fae realm and many other, stranger lands. The thousands of lesser outsiders then rapidly become embroiled in a war with each other, which leaves humanity relatively unmolested. It's not a perfect solution, but it does keep them from turning the Earth to cinders. As for the afterlife, the Nine Hells continue to function without the daedra, as I have said before. There will eventually be problems with some souls getting "stuck in the gears", producing ghosts and revenants, but that's not really a major problem until the time of the Metamor City setting.

I don't have any problem with people who have concerns about the Starchild Arc and want to find avenues of compromise. But I would appreciate it if you made sure that you understand what is being proposed before you say that it's going to mess everything up.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Ryx 1248560353|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ohhhhh boy this is a big 'un. I've had to sit back and read, and re-read, and talk to others to try to figure a way out of this crux.

It's not easy.

Personally my vote is to let the Starchild Arc slide to the wayside but this leaves another question. What do we do with the product of centuries of work by the Pantheon to create a tool for their use: Merai.

As Raven said, the entire idea for the Starchild Arc was to cast the entire Pantheon to earth, leaving the Heavens/Hells without anyone(thing) able to assume the vacancies. This had its own complications which only begins to be problematic ten or so centuries into the future.

Raven:
1.) Merai does what Kammoloth wanted her to do: strips the daedra lords of power and gives it to the aedra.

As I see it this is the worst possible situation. Not only are the aedra left in control of the Heavens, they have absolutely no balancing factors whatsoever. The Daedra, while still extremely powerful beings, are trapped on earth and subject to the whims of both mortals and aedra alike. The degree of chaos that would ensue from people trying to gain control of, kill, support or resist the daedra would be immeasurable. And then there's the machinations of the daedra themselves… amassing power, striving to kill one another (as I said on IRC: It would turn into a bad episode of Highlander) to increase their personal powers would only further compound the problems that they cause.
And then there's the fact that the aedra, unable to directly manifest on the corporeal plane except under very limited circumstances, would not be able to take a direct hand in keeping the daedra under control. Thus, the gods of order and control would assume the Heavens/Hells and things would slowly stratify to a rigid crystallization of right/wrong in the world while the gods of chaos and death would be left running amok in the mortal world…. turning it into Mordor in time.

2.) Merai is corrupted by Suspira.

This is possibly the best option we have available to us at this point.
Not only does it deal with the question of Merai, an extremely important fulcrum of fate, but it allows us to opt into or out of the situation that this causes. I discussed it at length with Matthias and it sounds very much like a LToY level event that takes place beneath the sheen of every day life.
Here is the essence of the plot we discussed:

Merai is captured & corrupted by Suspira, but no one knows precisely what happened to her (I would imagine this would cause Lothanassa Raven no end of stress). She is missing for the better part of a year or more.
When next she appears it is at the head of the Elcaran circle of Lothonassi. An edict is drafted from the Elcaran seat that removes Raven from her role in the High Council (or whatever it's called) of the Lothonas in Elcaran. She cannot be excommunicated entirely for she has committed nothing of criminal degree, but Merai understands how much of a threat she poses so bottles her up in Metamor where her influence over the Lightbringers beyond Metamor would be minimal.
With no one able to contest her Merai begins to spread her influence throughout Sathmore. Already stressed considerably by the wars taking place in the Midlands this is an easy task.
In Raven's stead the acolyte Lightbringer Elvmere begins to bring those unsullied by Merai's promise of power (et al) to him. While the world at large looks on not very concerned with the increasingly militaristic bent of the Lightbringer Order a slow internal power struggle begins to ensue. Elvmere gains considerable following and from that following begins working more and more overtly, through his various followers, under Raven's distant leadership, against Merai's influence.
The Aedra and even some of the Daedra, understanding how Merai's actions will unbalance the power between them and their fellow Daedra, cast their lot in with Elvmere. They do not grant him any overt powers, that is not the way they can operate, but they work to swing things in his favor.

In due time Merai looses her seat in Elcaran and retreats to the secondary stronghold of Silvassa. There she is marginalized and the balance of power in Sathmore begins to swing back to normal. Elvmere never attains any great degree of rank within the Lightbringer order, as he has never desired any and would refuse such boons. He has other goals not germane to this discussion. Merai corrupts Silvassa to the point of secession from the Sathmore empire and Pyralia jumps on the opportunity. Suttaivasse, then one of the greater powers in that region of Pyralia, with mercenaries from Brecaris and the White Tower, overwhelm Silvassa and absorb it into the Pyralian Kingdoms, capturing Merai and … well, what they do to her then depends on Raven, I would think. Malger might convince them to turn her over to Elcaran (Lightbringer Raven) for trial.

There is a key thing here that everyone should consider:
If we go with this, or a plot similar to this, all of the writers will have the opportunity to opt into or out of the entire storyline. They can even choose sides!!! This will allow them to expand their plots beyond the limits of Metamor Keep.
This will give Metamor a powerful foe that is not Nasoj, and all of the political & theological implications this entails. But it is not disruptive to the world as a whole. Inconvenient, at most, unless Sathmore falls entirely to corruption and goes to war with itself or the midlands or even Metamor (or everybody at once).

The Starchild Arc, no matter how it is worked through, does not allow writers this option. They are all involved, regardless of their personal feelings on the matter. That is why it took me the better part of a year to convince people that the Winter Assault idea had merit… I had to, because all of their characters would be involved in it.

3. ) Merai doesn't fall to the dark side, but rescue doesn't come soon enough and she dies.

This solves the entire problem succinctly and we need not worry about the Pantheon being cast down or the Lightbringers being corrupted… but it's a rather lame conclusion, IMO.

Kit Sune:
Alternate Idea — The Starchild event does happen and the Pantheon is cast down, but their celestial 'children' take up the job of running the heavens/hells in a much diminished capacity.

Well, this could certainly be the case. Their celestial children (by lesser beings, I do not recall the gods actually reproducing with each other except perhaps Suspira with any she could seduce) lack the divine touch that enabled the Pantheon do harness the power of the souls they bring in or the prayers dedicated to them. Nor can they be conduits to the higher or lower planes to which such souls transcend (Heavens or Oblivion, depending on one's overview) so the souls are left to languish where they end up when their mortal bodies perish. Reincarnation as a belief system ceases to exist, but ghosts begin cropping up like a bad infestation of weeds.

I know for one that Nocturna has no children by any mortal or celestial being, but of the fallen Pantheon she is still capable of reaching her plane though no longer has power over it.

In this much weakened state the Lightbringer order begins to weaken and in due time the entire faith is absorbed into the Ecclasia with the new Pantheon (same powers, much weakened, with different Names) being claimed as nothing more than Saints (or demons).

The corporeal Pantheon causes the same degree if strife they would otherwise cause once they are cast down but the belief in them being cast from the heavens is much less since the Lightbringers still have their divine 'powers' (granted by the lesser celestials rather than true Gods). The chaos of their presence in the corporeal realm will only last a century or two before stabilizing in power centers dedicated to each that wishes to assume power, while those that do not essentially disappear into their own personal hiding places in the world.

My only issue with the entire idea of bringing the Pantheon to earth:

It takes otherwise untouchable beings of massive powers into tangible living, breathing, approachable and usable entities in the world. The opportunity for abuse is monumental and would need to be restricted even more so than they are now. Someone would be required to review all plots that involved them in any direct way, compare them to all other plots, and keep their use under strict control. Some poor sod is going to have to plot out what the gods do, and where, and make this calendar available to future writers to work with or around; all future writers will be forced to consider the location and activities of all overt acting members of the Pantheon (those causing chaos for their own personal ends) in their stories even if their interaction is only tangential.

As I said… with the Starchild Arc no one has a choice, now or in the future, to opt in or out of the events that occur. This is why Raven has given us a decade to come to this point, and now that we are here and our lifestyles, viewpoints, and ability to continue forward with that plot are different we must decide: yes or no.

Well… *whew* That's my $0.02, take it as you will.

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1248576560|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Wow! you really do put it all out there!

I must make one point clear. Whatever choice is made about this it WILL BE CANON and NO ONE can opt out of these events. This is a major earth shaking event so PLEASE everyone give their opinions on this!

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1248657511|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Naturally, given the plot arc that Ryx and I worked out, I'm disposed to option two because it gives me something interesting to write about in Metamor Keep (as I'll have wrapped up my main character's plot arc at this point).

Further, even if we do take option 2 now, that doesn't mean a few more years down the road Merai might not be redeemed and then fulfill the original Starchild Arc purpose.

Casting the Pantheon to Earth is something we can always delay. But once done, it cannot be undone. It is an irrevocable act. I cannot stress that enough.

I don't want to harm the storylines of my friends. And I certainly don't want to do it just so I can have a storyline to write down the road. But there have been many decisions in the past for Metamor Keep that have made me readjust my stories to take into account some event that I couldn't ignore. In the end, they've always made my stories better. So if not having the Starchild Arc seems like it will be bad for you now, don't fret. There may be a way to turn it into something that could make your story even better.

Just keep that in mind. We are all here to help work over stories ideas. That's what makes us a community, and in many ways, a family.

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1248926277|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

When next she appears it is at the head of the Elcaran circle of Lothonassi. An edict is drafted from the Elcaran seat that removes Raven from her role in the High Council (or whatever it's called) of the Lothonas in Elcaran.

Ellcaran is only a minor seat of power for the Lightbringers. The most powerful chapter of the Order is based in Elvquelin, the capital of the Sathmore Empire. This is the seat that Merai would assume control of, after arranging for Lothanas Alarun (Ba'al's puppet) to be executed as a traitor to the Empire.

The nine chapters of the Order are semi-independent, and one Lothanas cannot remove another from power. However, chapters can be removed from the recognized Order and new chapters can be created. This happened after the withdrawal of the Elves from contact with humanity; they historically held two of the nine seats, but these were removed and two new human seats were created (at Salinon and Ellcaran). It is possible that a Lothanasa Merai could persuade a majority of the High Council to similarly divest Metamor. This would mean that the Lightbringers of the Northern Midlands, who currently answer to Raven, would be placed under the authority of a different chapter — probably Ellcaran, because it's the closest. Different temples are likely to have different feelings about this.

Well, this could certainly be the case. Their celestial children (by lesser beings, I do not recall the gods actually reproducing with each other except perhaps Suspira with any she could seduce)

Actually, that's incorrect. All of the deities have children by other deities except for Oblineth and Yajiit, who are too tied in to their elemental powers for anyone to touch them. Some of these unions happened a VERY long time ago, before the alliance between the aedra and daedra was broken. Suspira, in particular, has seduced every male member of the Pantheon at one time or another.

I know for one that Nocturna has no children by any mortal or celestial being

Not true. As stated in A Presence of Thieves, she had some children by Samekkh before the alliance between the aedra and daedra was broken. These dream-walkers are her most closely-trusted servants, but there aren't very many of them.

Nor can they be conduits to the higher or lower planes to which such souls transcend (Heavens or Oblivion, depending on one's overview) so the souls are left to languish where they end up when their mortal bodies perish. Reincarnation as a belief system ceases to exist, but ghosts begin cropping up like a bad infestation of weeds.

The machinery of the Nine Hells works fine without the deities present; the lesser daedra will be able to keep the system running. Souls will continue to be processed through the afterlife normally, with only occasional malfunctions causing the creation of ghosts.

The fallen deities of the pantheon will still be able to draw power from faith, or from actions in keeping with their portfolios, but only in a local area around them. They won't be able to affect the world on a broad scale, though.

One interesting consequence of taking this route: the lesser aedra and daedra might try to get themselves "promoted" by knocking off their former masters. We might see warrior celestials and fiends roaming through the world, hunting the members of the fallen pantheon, looking to replace the dried-up old has-beens with their own, fresh visions of how their divine portfolios should be handled.

It takes otherwise untouchable beings of massive powers into tangible living, breathing, approachable and usable entities in the world. The opportunity for abuse is monumental and would need to be restricted even more so than they are now.

Keep in mind that the fallen gods, while very powerful, will not be overwhelmingly so. A group of powerful wizards, an elder dragon, an ancient vampire, and other metaphysical heavy-hitters could each pose a match for one of the gods. Also, most of the gods' powers are not overtly violent or destructive, and the two who have the most raw elemental power (Oblineth and Yajiit) aren't interested in hurting anyone. (Yajiit is too compassionate, and Oblineth is too impartial to take sides in human affairs.)

The gods who are most likely to wreak havoc are:

• Lilith, who has a support network already in place and broad ambitions for the mortal realm
• Revonos, a raw bundle o' hate
• Tallakath, who is fascinated with death and will set off plagues and epidemics just to study their effects
• Dokorath, who has strong ideas about honor and valor but is likely to cause a lot of collateral damage in his crusades

Suspira and Ba'al will likely have a big influence on events, but it will be more subtle; they're corruptors rather than destroyers, and they'll try to push civilization toward decadence and revelry in order to fulfill their visions of how things should be. Samekkh's obsession with what he sees as "the one true path of history" is also likely to cause problems: he'll be convinced that things have gone badly off the rails, and will try to bend, twist and manipulate events from behind the scenes in order to get the timeline back on track.

As for Klepnos … he'll be subtle, as he usually is. He's the Trickster, and he's playing a deeper game than anyone else realizes. He understands time in a way no one else does, least of all his brother Samekkh, and his mysterious and seemingly-nonsensical acts are often working to preserve the multiverse. He may be the best friend humanity has among the Pantheon, though probably nobody else will ever realize it. :)

—Raven

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1249004989|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The nine chapters of the Order are semi-independent, and one Lothanas cannot remove another from power. However, chapters can be removed from the recognized Order and new chapters can be created. This happened after the withdrawal of the Elves from contact with humanity; they historically held two of the nine seats, but these were removed and two new human seats were created (at Salinon and Ellcaran). It is possible that a Lothanasa Merai could persuade a majority of the High Council to similarly divest Metamor. This would mean that the Lightbringers of the Northern Midlands, who currently answer to Raven, would be placed under the authority of a different chapter — probably Ellcaran, because it's the closest. Different temples are likely to have different feelings about this.

This could work actually. Then Raven and co. could focus their efforts at breaking the corruption in Ellcaran and returning the folks there to the light. This means that Elvmere and others wouldn't have to travel too far afield. Plus, there is a Follower presence in Ellcaran. Father Hough originally served there. That gives Metamor several hooks into the place to try to influence it.

One interesting consequence of taking this route: the lesser aedra and daedra might try to get themselves "promoted" by knocking off their former masters. We might see warrior celestials and fiends roaming through the world, hunting the members of the fallen pantheon, looking to replace the dried-up old has-beens with their own, fresh visions of how their divine portfolios should be handled.

Hence the really bad episode of Highlander comment from Ryx. ;-)

The beauty of this, and I've said it before and I'll say it again, is that we can add a new element to the Starchild Arc. Redemption. If Merai is corrupted, we obtain powerful new villains for Metamor, it becomes the center of a conflict between the Daedra, the Aedra realize that they need humans even more than they thought, everybody can have a chance to shine in a suddenly more dangerous world, and we get to, in the long run, still redeem Merai and bring the Pantheon down to Earth and then deal with that can of worms.

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

Kanmuri 1248598265|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hey guys, been following this forum thread over the past few days, and just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

Due to school, work, and other commitments, I unfortunately have not been able to catch up on all of the stories I've missed over the past few years, so I'm not as familiar with the events surrounding this arc as I would like to be. That being said, I thought I'd mention that I plan on trying to introduce some gods based on the Japanese pantheon myself. That's just going to be a bit down the line, after I finish re-writing my background stories leading up to Kishu/Rois coming from Yamato to Metamor. Though they may show up sooner than that, depending on how my muse strikes me. ^^;

I don't know how much this will affect things, as I imagine the Yamato gods not being likely to try and spread their influence too much into the west, though I will need to do some more research before saying anything definitive in that direction. That and I'll want to check with Tatsushu to see if he has anything planned in that direction.

Anyway, that's just some ideas I've had stewing for a bit and just wanted to let you know about. n.n

— Kanmuri

Re: The Starchild Arc

ChrisBradford 1248618702|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

As Matty said in the parent, I've been writing under the assumption that the Pantheon has been cast out of the spiritual planes. I can not say too much for fear of spoiling plot threads, but it would be much easier for me if Starchild goes forward, either as Raven's original vision, or Kitt's alternate take on it.

Last edited on 1248628939|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover By ChrisBradford + Show more

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1248920746|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

At the risk of speaking out the most favorable new plot seems to be where Merai is corrupted by Suspira when Alarun's Lothanasi capture her.

Do we have an agreement on that? Do we want to go ahead with that?

Ideas? Agreements, disagreements?

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1248921144|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'm not sure we can say that just yet, even though that is the position I'm most drawn to. I say let Raven get back from his vacation so he can further elucidate on what is to happen so we can make a more informed decision. Waiting an extra week on this won't kill us I don't think.

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

Hallan 1248921543|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I agree with Matt. Merai is Raven's character, and the Starchild arc is Raven's idea. It would be neither fair nor right to make a binding decision without his input.

Hallan

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1248921858|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

All right. I am also waiting for outline. When Raven is done having fun I'll send it to whoever wants to see it.

No need to hurry this. Plenty of time.

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1248979680|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Okay, I've just uploaded the overview of the Starchild Prophecy and everything I've written so far on Shadow Hunt. Click on "Files" at the bottom of this page and you'll be able to access them.

I'll go ahead and say that I'm not very satisfied with Shadow Hunt as it currently stands, which is one of the reasons I stopped working on it. I'll leave it to others to judge whether it really is the disjointed mess that it feels like to me.

Last edited on 1248979712|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover By RavenB + Show more

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1249005570|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I skimmed through Shadow Hunt. Some good material, but it's clear that you haven't taken into account a lot of the more recent developments in the setting. Although I was pleased with some of the references to Marzac. :-)

As for the Starchild Arc, I don't see why a brief interruption to have some Merai-corrupting and redeeming happen wouldn't be really cool. It would make the final confrontation all the more dramatic and poignant.

And yeah, my opinion on this subject is VERY revealed.

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249005858|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I skimmed through Shadow Hunt. Some good material, but it's clear that you haven't taken into account a lot of the more recent developments in the setting.

No surprise, since it was written a good six or seven years ago. :)

As for the Starchild Arc, I don't see why a brief interruption to have some Merai-corrupting and redeeming happen wouldn't be really cool. It would make the final confrontation all the more dramatic and poignant.

That's one of the reasons I suggested it as an option. :)

Cheers,

Raven

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1249085614|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ok. this is starting to get a little complex and confusing - at least to me. At the risk of seeming to be completely clueless can I get a little bit of a recap on what happens exactly. Say Merai does throws everyone out.
Who goes where exactly?
Who is left behind?
What happens to all their worshipers?
And what exactly does Merai do?

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249087774|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Details about the Great Fall, as it happens in the Metamor City timeline, are given here.

In brief:

• Merai casts the eighteen aedra & daedra lords to Earth.
• All other aedra and daedra are sent to the Dreamlands. They will periodically fall through portals into the material world, or cross through deliberately when they can do so, but most become embroiled in the Dreamlands War.
• The Nine Hells continue to allow the processing of human souls as they have before, though some mistakes may occur, leading to the creation of ghosts and revenants.
• The worshipers of the gods have mixed reactions, once word gets around about what has happened. Some hold on to their faith, believing that the situation is temporary. Some seek out their patron deities in order to follow in their footsteps and learn from them directly. Some begin focusing their worship on the Creator-god Iluvatar but do not believe that Eli is the same being. Some do believe they are the same being, but cannot accept the teachings of the Followers. Some convert to various Follower denominations.
• The Lothanasi begin a religious council in Whales that fall, in order to decide how to interpret the Starchild events and what they should do next. The council lasts until the following summer, at which point the Order affirms that Merai had contact with the Divine Absolute but that her human mind interpreted this contact in the way that she was predisposed to (i.e., seeing a vision of Yahshua). It does not condemn Merai as a traitor or a heretic, but it doesn't praise her as a savior, either. The Lothanasi interpret their role as guardians of mortals and intermediaries between humans and supernatural beings. Sathmore, Metamor, Quenardya, and parts of the Midlands acknowledge their international authority in dealing with the threats of "Outsiders" (fiends, celestials, faeries, etc.).
• Merai, who has been kept out of the public eye while the council is in progress, feels betrayed by the decision. She has a big, bitter argument with Raven, whom she believes sold out and ignored the truth for political reasons. She leaves Metamor with Artela, Akkala and Velena, who have decided to walk the world together and try to help their followers adjust to the new situation. Merai believes that she should see what her choices have wrought, and try to find a middle path between denying Eli's message and simply accepting the Ecclesia's views on everything. She brings Calvis, the acolyte from Bozojo, along with her, and they fall in love and get married on the way. About ten years later Merai will return to Metamor, reconcile with Raven, and settle in Sorin to raise a family. There she will also compile the Codex of Merai, which eventually becomes the seed of the Church of St. Merai.

Last edited on 1249088321|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover By RavenB + Show more

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249088360|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Oh, and more details about Merai's life after the Day of the Starchild may be found here. Again, this is for the Metamor City timeline - YMMV.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Hallan 1249181741|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Personally, I think the Starchild battle could be good for the MK setting. Rather than just opening up one potential source of conflict in Sathamore, it opens up a lot of potential hotspots as the aedra and daedra scatter across the world.

Hallan

Last edited on 1249181798|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover By Hallan + Show more

Re: The Starchild Arc

Kit Sune 1249188334|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ok, moving the above argument here because it's annoying to have the same basic argument in two places at once. This forum NEEDS a function to organize posts by time for clarity issues. Anyway, you (Raven) were right when you said I haven't done complete research on the issue. I've only been here a year and it's devilishly difficult to find information on this arc without going to your MK2K which for some reason I haven't been able to find so I'm working with fragmented knowledge. Anyway, it seems clear that what you're saying is there's no compromise on this issue. Either the event happens (albeit delayed) or it doesn't. There is no 'it happens but in this different way that DOESN'T give arise to what people are protesting'. The way I see it, it took ten years for this timeline to go two. That's a five to one ratio and approximately one season occurs every year. As such any delay at all in the story means this isn't likely to happen for another five or ten years which means it may as well not happen ever (especially if we put it off again in the future). If we're going to do this ever I think we should actually DO it and not say we're just going to do it later unless we have a clear timeline progressively being worked on leading to this event.

That mess said, I don't mind us doing something else instead so long as we don't just say 'we'll do it later' and then never get around to it. An event like this is a bit too important to leave hanging. And that's MY two cents.

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249189028|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I've only been here a year and it's devilishly difficult to find information on this arc without going to your MK2K which for some reason I haven't been able to find

Metamor Keep 2000

MK2K Story Bible

Anyway, it seems clear that what you're saying is there's no compromise on this issue. Either the event happens (albeit delayed) or it doesn't. There is no 'it happens but in this different way that DOESN'T give arise to what people are protesting'.

I think you're the only one protesting the idea of the Heavens and Hells being emptied. Others have expressed concern about the specific opponents facing Metamor, or about the timing of the events, but I think you're the only one who has a problem with it in principle.

Halfway measures make no sense in this case, given the motivations of the characters involved. We can do it now, or a set number of years from now, or never, but doing it halfway would require one or more characters to carry the Idiot Ball, and I have too much respect for MK to see that happen.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Kit Sune 1249192102|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well the article you linked DOES call it the Idiot "Ba'al"… >.>

Anyway, nothing against the afterrealms being emptied if they still continue to work (sorry about the repetitive use of fourteen btw, that was an arithmatic fail on my part. Thought there were seven of each cause of the phrase 'seventh heaven'). It was mostly a suggestion for how the mortal realm won't be thrown into chaos and break the setting. If you think it won't irrevocably change the genre of this universe changing the general appeal to audience factor and cause untold chaos, take it up with Ryx and whoever else has this problem. You have essentially said that my idea will not work and I've decided I don't really have the patience to continually patch the holes you're poking in it when it seems you just dislike the idea as a whole. I'm just going to say that the immortal eighteen don't HAVE to act like idiots in order for them to not suddenly take over the world, there is such a thing as ulterior motivation. The gods don't HAVE to fall in the way you have envisioned, there are other ways for it to happen.

I'm tempted to say I don't care anymore, but I know I will everytime a new opinion comes up. So for now, with this new given information, I'm just going to ask… if the daedra get power from the souls going through hell, and the aedra obviously don't because the mortals don't TOUCH the heavens, while both the aedra AND the daedra have worshipers… why are they still equal in power? Why are the aedra satisfied with the heavens when the hells are actually a power source? For that matter why trap all the lesser gods in the one hell all the good guys go to? Don't they deserve a bit of a break? Not to mention poor Nocturna who has to oversee them all. Wouldn't it be better to put them in the ninth realm? The souls that go there are supposed to be miserable anyway and it's not like the lesser gods can escape with the portals broken. I'm still looking into your religion, but I don't see how some parts of it make sense.

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249196043|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

You have essentially said that my idea will not work and I've decided I don't really have the patience to continually patch the holes you're poking in it when it seems you just dislike the idea as a whole.

Yes, I dislike the idea as a whole. I think I said that before. But I also believe that people deserve an explanation for why, hence my enumeration of some specific reasons why I don't think it works.

I'm just going to say that the immortal eighteen don't HAVE to act like idiots in order for them to not suddenly take over the world, there is such a thing as ulterior motivation.

I never said that the gods would try to take over the world. I'm not sure how you got that out of my previous comments. What I said was that (1) the gods' subordinates would try to take over the Hells and Heavens if they were left in control when the gods were cast down, and (2) this plot line would require Eli and Merai to act like idiots, because it would mean leaving in place the mechanism to perpetuate the very same corrupt religious system that Eli wants Merai to destroy. (Or at least that's what Merai thinks he wants. I'm happy to leave it unresolved whether Yashua actually appears to her or if it's a delusional vision she gets as a result of touching the Divine Absolute.)

From the moment we established that the Lothanasi and the Ecclesia were existing in the same universe, I decided that the Lothanasi system eventually had to be destroyed. Tangling with the gods is dangerous, and generally gets you more stuck and more indebted to them the more you deal with them; that's something I had written into the LB system from the beginning, and it's why the Lightbringers exist: to safeguard the people from getting in over their heads. But a god like Eli wouldn't let the Pantheon persist in manipulating people forever. He would want them to learn humility and maturity — which was the whole reason the Elders bound them to Earth to begin with, only it didn't work as well as they'd hoped.

The gods don't HAVE to fall in the way you have envisioned, there are other ways for it to happen.

That's true, and if the community as a whole decides to choose a different path I'll abide by their decision. But the Starchild has already been put in place as a major dangling plot thread, so it makes sense to use it at some point if we decide that the Great Fall is going to happen — whether it's now or several years down the timeline.

if the daedra get power from the souls going through hell, and the aedra obviously don't because the mortals don't TOUCH the heavens, while both the aedra AND the daedra have worshipers… why are they still equal in power? Why are the aedra satisfied with the heavens when the hells are actually a power source?

The heavens produce power for the aedra, as well, but the means by which they do so is not known to mortals. (They actually tap in to the power of the imprisoned Titans, siphoning off their energy a teeny bit at a time — but only Kammoloth, Samekkh and Dokorath know that.) Also, the aedra have more overt worshipers than the daedra, while the daedra get power from the vices that people naturally exhibit. All in all, it more or less balances out.

For that matter why trap all the lesser gods in the one hell all the good guys go to? Don't they deserve a bit of a break?

They aren't going to be trapped in the First Hell; they're going to be trapped in the Dreamlands. Yes, the denizens of the First Hell can access the Dreamlands with the help of Nocturna's servants, but it's not an open door. The good souls will be safe from the armies flooding the Dreamlands.

As for why Merai throws them all there, it's the only place that she knows of that is both big enough to hold them all and separate enough from both the material plane and the outer planes that they won't be able to harm humanity or ascend to godhood themselves.

Not to mention poor Nocturna who has to oversee them all.

Nocturna is being cast to earth with the other daedra lords, and thus will have other problems to worry about.

Wouldn't it be better to put them in the ninth realm? The souls that go there are supposed to be miserable anyway and it's not like the lesser gods can escape with the portals broken.

True, they can't travel through their normal means with the Axis broken, but the Ninth Hell is still a major reserve of power, and its power will grow with Ba'al no longer drawing on it. Eventually, that power's going to be strong enough that whoever controls it will be able to ascend to godhood and tear open their own gateway to the Material Plane. And after being warped by the nightmare-realm of the Nine Hells for centuries or millennia, whatever comes out of that portal is going to be a Very Bad Thing(tm). Merai was trying to choose a solution that would minimize the damage; locking all the outsiders in the Ninth Hell would just delay that damage and give it a chance to build up compound interest.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Kit Sune 1249294790|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Yes, I dislike the idea as a whole. I think I said that before. But I also believe that people deserve an 
explanation for why, hence my enumeration of some specific reasons why I don't think it works.

Specific problems can always be fixed. Only when the problem lies with the underlying concept do you have to actually scrap the idea. The lesser gods acting as imposters was only a suggestion, the premise is to somehow keep the lothanasi faith mostly intact so that it doesn't instantly crumble and leave the ecclessia as the sole religion without a decent competition. A lot of people want to avoid having the MK 'verse be a monotheism and even more like the light bringer religion itself and would like it not to be destroyed or even altered to the lesser extent that the Church of Merai would have it. I firmly believe this should be possible without undue chaos or universe breaking, even WITH the pantheon walking the mortal realms.

Speaking of which, is there any particular reason they couldn't be confined to the dreamlands as well? Maybe not Nocturna who might gain some semblance of power there, but the other seventeen surely. You've already said that particular realm is unable to give any real energy to the gods hence the reason to put all the OTHER gods there. Why not the big eighteen?

this plot line would require Eli and Merai to act like idiots, because it would mean leaving in place
the mechanism to perpetuate the very same corrupt religious system that Eli wants Merai to destroy.

This makes SO much more sense than what I thought you had said. My pardons, I will withdraw that argument as it is completely invalid. It should be completely reasonable that the presence of the gods on Earth will not be changing the basic fabric of the setting? Right now this universe is about MK and the problems they face, primarily (as the audience drawing factor) the curse from Nasoj. While the gods ARE interesting as is the reactions of everyone else involved, I'd rather they NOT end up the focus of the universe or anything like that. Even told from the perspective of MK it's possible for something this big to run away and steal the show and I would hate to see that happen.

They aren't going to be trapped in the First Hell; they're going to be trapped in the Dreamlands.

Ah, this clears things up a lot and really answers the entire line of questions I had on the issue. No wonder it didn't make sense!

Re: The Starchild Arc

Virmir 1249316787|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The lesser gods acting as imposters was only a suggestion, the premise is to somehow keep the lothanasi faith mostly intact so that it doesn't instantly crumble and leave the ecclessia as the sole religion without a decent competition. A lot of people want to avoid having the MK 'verse be a monotheism and even more like the light bringer religion itself and would like it not to be destroyed or even altered to the lesser extent that the Church of Merai would have it.

I should chime in, as this is the reason the whole Starchild arc makes me uncomfortable.

I think it is a very bad idea to leave MK with only one "true" religion. (And by "true", I mean showing that Eli is the one and only true god of this setting.) Especially since this religion mirrors a religion found in real life. Doing so officially makes the MK universe an advocate of this real life religion. Advocating real life issues without allowing room for alternatives alienates readers (and writers) who may not agree with said issues.

If the Starchild Arc is to be completed, special care needs to be taken in regards to making absolutely sure that it is left ambiguous whether or not characters who are Followers or Non-Followers are "correct" in the religious paths they have chosen.

---

Metamor Keep Story Archives | Crimson Flag Comic | Virmir's Stories

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249334121|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Speaking of which, is there any particular reason they couldn't be confined to the dreamlands as well? Maybe not Nocturna who might gain some semblance of power there, but the other seventeen surely. You've already said that particular realm is unable to give any real energy to the gods hence the reason to put all the OTHER gods there. Why not the big eighteen?

From a story standpoint, it's more interesting (IMO) to have the gods walking around among mortals, being forced to endure the petty indignities of mortal life. From an in-universe standpoint, Eli wants them cut off from their power structure so that they will have to learn about humans by living among them. He wants them to learn humility. Or, at least, that's what Merai believes he wants…

Ah, this clears things up a lot and really answers the entire line of questions I had on the issue. No wonder it didn't make sense!

Cool, glad we got that straightened out. :)

I think it is a very bad idea to leave MK with only one "true" religion. (And by "true", I mean showing that Eli is the one and only true god of this setting.) Especially since this religion mirrors a religion found in real life. Doing so officially makes the MK universe an advocate of this real life religion. Advocating real life issues without allowing room for alternatives alienates readers (and writers) who may not agree with said issues.

If the Starchild Arc is to be completed, special care needs to be taken in regards to making absolutely sure that it is left ambiguous whether or not characters who are Followers or Non-Followers are "correct" in the religious paths they have chosen.

I agree. MK has always operated on the assumption that Eli is real and Yahshua was real, but that Eli may or may not be THE Creator-god. The gods of the Pantheon, on the other hand, have always been imposters — I showed way back in "Rites of Ascendancy" that the Lightbringers were aware of this, but that they went along with the game because the gods were too powerful to do otherwise.

In the world of Metamor City I have several competing belief systems:

• Theists think that there is a knowable Creator-god. This includes the Ecclesiasts, Meraists, Elvish Monotheists, and servants of the Great Maker (a Southlander creator-god). These groups differ in their beliefs on whether they are all worshiping the same god under different names, or if their own religion is correct and the others are worshiping an imposter.
• Universalists think that there was a Creator-god, but that it divided itself into many fragments to create the universe. They believe that the gods worshiped by the Theists, the fallen gods of the Pantheon, and even the souls of mortals are all fragments of this original divine essence. Some are bigger than others, and some are big enough and powerful enough that they might actually believe themselves to be the actual Creator-god, but none of them encompasses the full reality of the Creator-god's nature.
• Agnostics believe that the Creator-god is either unknowable, or that the universe arose through naturalistic processes and that the gods came into being along with the creation. They may be uninterested in spiritual matters, or they may follow philosophical religious paths like Zen Buddhism.

After the Starchild, the Lothanasi Order officially took no position on the question of the Creator-god's existence, focusing its efforts on the more practical questions of how to help people live with the realities of the supernatural world while they sought their own paths. Unofficially, they did a lot to promote the Universalist view, since it gave an air of legitimacy to serving the gods while still acknowledging that Merai encountered something divine on Sun Mountain.

Personally, I think it would be very interesting to see how different servants of the gods responded to this dramatic change in the world. We might even see some of these religious movements begin to take place, as people worked to fill the void left by the Pantheon.

Of course, given the chaos that just tore through the upper ranks of the Ecclesia, they might not be in any position to exploit the current weakness of the Lightbringer Order. The Patriarch is going to have to do a thorough housecleaning to make sure he got rid of all of the folks who were corrupted by Marzac and/or the Fallen.

Last edited on 1249334386|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover By RavenB + Show more

Re: The Starchild Arc

Hallan 1249343990|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Just for the record, we do have other pantheons that have been or are being added: Oberon's and Ryuo's spring to mind. Heck, we've also got atheists in a world where there are visible, tangible deific beings who are quite willing to do such things as curse a person into the form of a permanently youthened gray fox…

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249353592|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Just for the record, we do have other pantheons that have been or are being added

The assumption has always been that those are the same gods and/or their children, worshiped under other names. The pantheon's reach is global, but there's no reason that everyone would experience their touch in the same way.

There was an older pantheon of gods, supposedly, in the very early history of mankind; Sakkan, Mistress of the Arts, was the last of these, the others having died out from lack of faith. Sakkan was accepted into the Pantheon under Samekkh's authority and placed in charge of the Nine Muses.

Heck, we've also got atheists in a world where there are visible, tangible deific beings who are quite willing to do such things as curse a person into the form of a permanently youthened gray fox…

Calling anyone an atheist under such circumstances seems a little silly unless they're completely insane … but I suppose they could simply believe that the difference between the gods and mortals is only one of degree, rather than kind.

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1249260366|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ok. Lets take a little breather and not get too deeply into the debate and things get hostile.

The MK story line does move along at the rate of 1 or 2 seasons a year. But there are several plots being written now that depend heavily on Star Child. So we do need to decide now.

I do need some basic fundemental questions answered.
1- Do we go ahead with Star Child plot as is? No changes.
2 - If not. the what do we do?
A: Make only minor changes to the plot.
B: Make major changes or drop the plot completely and go with something different. At the moment the favorite seems to be that Merai is corrupted.

So please give me your opinions, ideas and suggestions!

Re: The Starchild Arc

Ryx 1249296323|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Boy, what a mess… :/

Misha Wrote:

1- Do we go ahead with Star Child plot as is? No changes

Unfortunately I do not think we can progress forward without some modifications. Either a shift of end result, as Kit suggested, or the like.

2- If not, then what do we do.

Well, Kit has suggested one possible result if it does happen. Myself and Matthias have offered a secondary plot that does not abolish the opportunity of the StarChild event happening at a future time.
Or Merai is killed, end of story, drive on with things as they stand now. This last is a desperate measure that is as irreversible as the Starchild event.
Or the Starchild Event does happen, but the gods return to their respective demesnes by sheer brute force after some period of time.

My vote stands as I earlier stated, so I will not remunerate it again.

I do notice, however, that my understanding of the overall Lightbringer order was badly misinformed, I totally overlooked Elvquelin… *heh*. Merai corrupting the lesser seat of Ellcaran would be that much easier then, as well as Silvassa (which teeters as close to the edge as a city can get already). I am not sure how Elvquelin will take her machinations, or perhaps she causes her Ellcaran 'sect' to completely divest itself from the Elvquelin heirarchy (a'la the Reformers of the Ecclasia).

—-

Something I have considered, though… having the Aedra/Daedra wandering the mortal realms will turn the ethos circles of the Lightbringers rather solidly on its ear.
Evil forces will seek to slay the 'good' gods to assume their powers for themselves (the other gods cannot 'quicken' the powers of their fellows, something they've learned during their eons in the Hells… but their children and Mortals are a completely different issue). Good forces will seek to slay the 'evil' gods and inadvertantly assume some of their powers, or this may be a direct intention of gaining control of the 'evil' side of the pantheon. Granted, if a Mortal were to slay one of the Pantheon they would lack the celestial essence to make full use of that deities' powers, whereas one of the celestial offspring would be able to use it almost immediately… as well as return to the Hells!

Thus… Evil will corrupt 'beneficent' forces and Good will weaken the 'baneful' forces throwing everything out of whack. Chaos will ensue (though rather brief, if catastrophic, depending on how many times an auspice is quickened), compounding the general unrest of the Pantheon walking the mortal world.

Okay, I've just uploaded the overview of the Starchild Prophecy and everything I've written so far on Shadow Hunt. Click on "Files" at the bottom of this page and you'll be able to access them.

I don't find any such offered link… could you link it directly in a reply?

Last edited on 1249297543|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover By Ryx + Show more

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249335285|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I do notice, however, that my understanding of the overall Lightbringer order was badly misinformed, I totally overlooked Elvquelin… *heh*. Merai corrupting the lesser seat of Ellcaran would be that much easier then, as well as Silvassa (which teeters as close to the edge as a city can get already). I am not sure how Elvquelin will take her machinations, or perhaps she causes her Ellcaran 'sect' to completely divest itself from the Elvquelin heirarchy (a'la the Reformers of the Ecclasia).

In the proposal that I sent to Matty, Suspira gives Merai the task of seducing the Sathmoran Emperor and leading him into worship of Suspira in exchange for eternal youth and vigor. In exchange, Merai uses her influence on the Emperor to get Lothanas Alarun declared a traitor to the Empire. Since Alarun is Ba'al's puppet and the leader of the corrupted faction within the Lothanasi, this is a power play both on the mortal realm and within the ranks of the Daedra Lords. It would make more sense for Merai to get herself appointed as the High Priestess of Elvquelin than Ellcaran, since the latter is outside the Emperor's area of influence. Suspira also has more interest in corrupting Elvquelin than Silvassa; the latter, while important, is far from the Empire's center of power, while corrupting the capital gives her a chance to spread her influence through the entire Empire.

Evil forces will seek to slay the 'good' gods to assume their powers for themselves (the other gods cannot 'quicken' the powers of their fellows, something they've learned during their eons in the Hells… but their children and Mortals are a completely different issue). Good forces will seek to slay the 'evil' gods and inadvertantly assume some of their powers, or this may be a direct intention of gaining control of the 'evil' side of the pantheon.

It'll take a while before people realize that killing one of the gods results in stealing their portfolio. The gods themselves aren't exactly aware of this, since it's never happened before! But yes, this sort of "accidental promotion" is exactly what happens to Raven's sister Talia in the Metamor City timeline.

Granted, if a Mortal were to slay one of the Pantheon they would lack the celestial essence to make full use of that deities' powers,

The deity's Essence is actually what the mortal absorbs when they slay them, which is why they begin to be influenced by it. But you're right, it would take them time to learn how to make the most of that power.

whereas one of the celestial offspring would be able to use it almost immediately… as well as return to the Hells!

Not true, unless we go with Kit Sune's idea and leave the Axis in place. If we do go that way, then you're right — one of the junior gods stealing a senior deity's portfolio would be VERY bad.

Thus… Evil will corrupt 'beneficent' forces and Good will weaken the 'baneful' forces throwing everything out of whack. Chaos will ensue (though rather brief, if catastrophic, depending on how many times an auspice is quickened), compounding the general unrest of the Pantheon walking the mortal world.

This is most likely to be a problem with Revonos's power, since his Rage will lead him into battles with others — which, in turn, will deplete his power and make him more vulnerable to being killed, thus increasing the likelihood that the power will be passed on. The other gods will be much more cautious once they realize they can be killed, and will focus either on building defensible centers of power, banding together for safety, withdrawing to remote places, or keeping their true natures hidden.

I don't find any such offered link… could you link it directly in a reply?

[http://mkworld.wikidot.com/local--files/forum:thread/MK-ShadowHunt-inprogress.doc]

[http://mkworld.wikidot.com/local--files/forum:thread/The-Starchild-Prophecy]

Last edited on 1249335420|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover By RavenB + Show more

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1249350722|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I've been quiet for a few days, and look what happens! :-)

I'd like to offer a few more thoughts on this and one other topic. First, the pace of MK.

The reason that Metamor Keep proceeds so slowly through the seasons is entirely my fault. Were I not around, Raven would have probably written and finished a lot more of the Starchild stuff already. Heck, his last story is set after LToY, and yet was completed a few years before I started writing LToY!

Once I resume writing new MK stories (September), I'll be moving at a faster pace through the seasons, and will likely move even quicker once I wrap up Charles's main story arc. This is assuming I have that much more to say. That's dependent on what people want to do.

So, I don't think delaying the Starchild means we'll never do it. I just think it means we'll delay it. Although if you really, really want to do the Starchild, then you'll probably be waiting quite some time.

This brings us back to the main topic. I'm all for the Merai corruption plot line as Raven, Ryx and I have discussed and presented back and forth. I think it provides for a much better storyline than the basic Starchild Arc itself. Why? Because it introduces the theme of redemption which is completely lacking in the Starchild at present. That and it does not leave us in a situation with only one major world religion left standing.

That brings us to another major issue with doing the Starchild Arc as it is: who will write it? Raven certainly won't be doing that. So, who here will be willing to write the conclusion to the Starchild Arc instead? I'm perfectly willing to put my paw to the task of writing the Merai corruption. But who wants to write the Starchild?

Unless somebody is willing to do it, then why have it at all?

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

Ryx 1249351392|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

As I consider it,

The fall of the Pantheon will only make the Lightbringer order that much stronger because, as Raven has stated, the faithful still get some sense of fulfillment from their worship, there is still transition to the afterlife, et al.
And now the physical embodiments of their Pantheon walk the earth in flesh and blood. Who could contest the existence of Higher Powers when they're right down the road? Of course, most would only ascertain that the 'cast down' Pantheon are merely avatars of the 'true' Gods, sent to earth to strengthen the belief of their followers… few not directly involved would believe that the gods have truly been banished from the higher planes.

So, until it became widely known that the Pantheon had truly be cast from the Planes the Lightbringers would only be a stronger counterpoint to the Ecclasia. This could last centuries, until the belief in certain more reclusive members of the Pantheon began to wane considerably.

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249354853|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

You raise a really interesting point about the effect of the gods' presence on Earth, and the idea that people would interpret them as avatars. That could, indeed, reaffirm faith in the Pantheon for a very long time. But the organized priesthood is still in big trouble, for one major reason: their proxy spells won't work anymore unless the god in question is within range to detect the "prayer request" (probably no more than a few miles under ideal circumstances).

From the perspective of the commoners, it's going to look like the gods have suddenly cut off the power supply. Now, what do you suppose people are going to think when their priests can't offer blessings and divine intervention anymore? I mean, sure, the Light Healing will still work, since that draws on the priest's own life force, but everything else is pretty much hosed. I'm betting that the common folk are going to assume that the Lothanasi have screwed something up really badly and lost the gods' endorsement — and with five of the high priests being executed for heresy, it won't be hard to come up with a working theory for why. Cue the mass panic, and a desperate latching-on to anyone who appears to have the signs of the gods' favor. An unscrupulous wizard with a talent for certain kinds of magic could get himself a cult following really, really easily…

Re: The Starchild Arc

Ryx 1249367713|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Exactly so.

This could open the door for story ideas the World over for years to come.

Let's say that these proxy spells still work… but with far less reliability and far, far less potency than they did in the past if there's not one of the Pantheon within a league or so (actually, I would extend this to a few dozen leagues… thus any of the former Gods could grant these requests quite without any knowledge from the petitioner that the god is in the area). With the lesser celestials still 'running things' behind the scenes in the various planes much of the former magic would be retained by the truly faithful, but considerably weakened.

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249368739|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

With the lesser celestials still 'running things' behind the scenes in the various planes

That has yet to be decided, given the problems with the idea that I delineated earlier. If the celestials and fiends have access to their power sources, sooner or later someone's going to amass enough power to qualify for full-fledged deity status.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Ryx 1249431010|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well, I was thinking the celestials are still running the 'hells' but have absolutely no contact with the power trickling in through whatever means. They might have some small contact with the power released from various souls, but nothing from the mortal plane. Each of the fallen Pantheon still have a ephemeral connection with that power but it's far, far weaker than it ever was in the past. It's enough to keep the God alive in the face of typical odds but they still face a threat from any individual or group powerful enough to wear them down.

None of the celestial entities could ever amass enough raw power to claim godhead but they could attempt to claim the title… how well they could hold that claim is in question.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Ryx 1249431187|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

One thing I would like to point out, regardless of the Plot Arc we choose to follow:

WHO is going to write it???
Starchild is Raven's creation, and he has already stated that he's shelved further writing on that plot.
Kit's idea hinges on the Starchild Arc.

Merai's Corruption is Matthias' idea, with my input and assistance, and he/we would be the primary motive forces behind its advancement.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1249457035|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

One thing I would like to point out, regardless of the Plot Arc we choose to follow:

WHO is going to write it???
Starchild is Raven's creation, and he has already stated that he's shelved further writing on that plot.
Kit's idea hinges on the Starchild Arc.

Merai's Corruption is Matthias' idea, with my input and assistance, and he/we would be the primary motive forces behind its advancement.

If you guys decide to go with the corruption story line, the question of who writes the Starchild battle itself can be delayed for quite a while, since it will likely be several years in-story before Merai is redeemed.

A few thoughts about this storyline while they're fresh in my mind:

• Merai still believes that she's working for the greater good, even after she's taken Suspira's bargain and gotten the Emperor wrapped around her finger. She'll know that Raven and Rickkter will be worried for her and want to come after her if they don't hear anything; she also fears that they won't understand that she "did what she had to do." Because of this, as soon as her situation is secure in the palace, she'll send a message to Raven letting her know that she's safe, that she's persuaded the Emperor to help her, and that she can do more good where she is than by coming home. Such a message might be doubly effective if the Emperor also sends Duke Thomas the head of Lothanas Alarun — a peace token, in apology for Alarun sending the plague idol to Metamor. Given the distances involved and the slow pace of communication, it could be a long time before the Keepers realize that Merai has, in fact, been corrupted.
• Related to the above, it would actually make sense for Suspira to maneuver the Emperor into an alliance with Metamor. Lilith is working on advancing her power in the Northlands, and some of the Keepers are already aware of the threat she poses. Since Suspira despises Lilith and opposes her at every turn, an alliance that would give her Sathmoran puppets access to the Northlands would be highly advantageous. Again, it could be a long time before the Keepers realize that there's something not quite right about their new Imperial allies. Of course, Whales won't be happy to see Metamor getting cozy with the island nation's biggest maritime rival, but it's always smart politics to make nice with the heavyweights on your proverbial doorstep.
• The Elven army is moving in secret through the Midlands toward Metamor, disguising itself in a bank of summoned fog that clouds the memories of anyone outside the army who stumbles into it. Tessa summoned them right before she and Merai left on their mission to Elvquelin, believing that the Starchild Prophecy was falling into place and that the final battle was near. The Elves will arrive at Metamor Valley in mid-May to discover that no battle is in the offing, so the army will send out a diplomatic delegation to Metamor to meet with the Duke and Raven and hopefully figure out what the heck is going on. The Elven prince sent to lead the army will be worried about the apparent breaking of the prophecy, but he'll seize on the opportunity to forge a new treaty of friendship with Metamor. Everything they've seen suggests that the daedra lords are becoming more active, and they're going to need all the friends they can get, even if they are half a continent away.
• Because of both Merai's corruption and Hallan's storyline with Drift/Carcarak, the Daedra Council is going to shatter: Revonos stages an attempted coup against Ba'al. Suspira betrays Ba'al by taking Merai for herself and having Ba'al's puppet Alarun killed. Lilith's army at Lik gets thrashed by Carcarak, which is going to make her furious with Revonos and Ba'al and will require her to devote more attention to her earthly holdings in order to pull everything back together. Since Ba'al's going to be busy putting down Revonos's insurrection, he won't be able to ride herd on the other members of the Council, and they'll go back to focusing on their own projects. The plan to use the corrupted Lightbringers to bring the daedra back into the recognized pantheon will fall to pieces amidst the daedra lords' own infighting.¹ It could be years before circumstances are right again for the daedra lords to unify their efforts, though several of them could pose serious individual threats to Metamor. This is a good thing, because the aedra lords are also going to be fractious and divided once Merai turns against the path they set for her.

Lots of potential for interesting stories here…

—Raven

Footnotes

1. After all, why should Lilith or Suspira care about getting Ba'al or Revonos recognized, if they can build their own little mortal puppet-kingdoms that are loyal to them alone?

Re: The Starchild Arc

Kit Sune 1249463146|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well it seems to me there have been a LOT of new possibilities and implications opened up by these recent suggestions. The whole idea I had with the minor gods remaining in place hinges on the theory that they canNOT then gain enough power to then take over themselves, not even by killing the original owners. They'd be nothing more than a shadow pantheon keeping the system from crumbling because letting the system crumble leaves them with even LESS power than they'd normally have, even though stepping up to control things doesn't really give them much more besides perhaps prestige among others and the benefits that come with it. That said, anything that will keep the religious diversity of the setting intact will be fine with me for the most part. My suggestion was just one way this could work.

Given what Matt said about how the time progression would work, it does seem reasonable to delay this, especially since it will take a while to write (for whoever takes up the project) anyway. Shattering the Daedra council seems like a very good idea to create new possibilities by giving the world several enemies to deal with instead of the one unified front. Obviously any more Nocturna, Klepnos, and Oblineth make won't be evil so much as a separate project. Ba'al has always been a big player, but now Suspira, Lilith, and Agmemnos will be making moves of their own which makes for excellent opportunities to diversify the universe a little without breaking the setting. As such I am fully in support of Merai getting corrupted this way where she doesn't realize she has been corrupted which makes redemption later on more feasible.

I believe somewhere earlier it was stated that one of the reasons for going through with the starchild event is because you (Raven) thought the lothanasi system was flawed because of how obvious the pantheon didn't have absolute authority or that the religious government was wrong or something to that extent? I'd like to point out that no matter how flawed the religion is, the belief behind it is fine. The elders were created by the creator and they in turn created the pantheon and then left. The reason the lothanasi are worshiped is because they are far closer to the original creator in ability than the mortals themselves who can only reach the pantheon. Very similar to how priests are revered because they are bridges to the god they represent. The religion has warped over time (if not from what I said, than from something else) to outright worship of the pantheon who are only too happy to receive the attention and resulting power. So really the dethronement of the pantheon shouldn't actually damage the faith so much as remind everyone that they're not supposed to be worshiping the pantheon in the first place (once they realize the actual situation anyway). Indeed if you consider this it might not even be necessary for Merai wanting to dethrone them in the first place if done properly. (I do not really suggest this path though)

So in summary…

1. As long as something exists to keep the eclesia from being the 'true' religion of the universe, this should satisfy the main complaint against the Starchild Arc
2. With new information, I am in favor of corrupting Merai and leaving the actual event for later
3. Due to reasons given in my third paragraph I believe that it may be possible for there to be a strong faith in the lothanasi faith whether or not the pantheon fall and there may be a way to accomplish Merai's goal (as I understand it) without actually throwing them to earth

My two cents Re: The Starchild Arc

Hallan 1249492626|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

As the person with perhaps the second-largest investment in the Starchild arc, my position is this: I prefer the Starchild battle to Merai's corruption, and I absolutely do not want Merai dead. My first reason is time invested: the pieces for the Starchild battle are already in place, and have been for quite some time. I think Raven has been very patient waiting for Matt's story to finish.

My second reason for preferring the Starchild battle is for integrity of plot and character. After all of her training and all of her previous experience with daedra (and especially with Suspira), Merai should know that daedra cannot be trusted. For her to submit to Suspira after all she's been through seems out of character to me. These are Raven's characters we're dealing with. Can we expect others to treat our characters with proper respect if we insist that Merai and company act out of character?

My last reason is for Drift. Without the Starchild battle, it is going to be significantly more difficult to redeem him. In the Starchild arc, Drift is directly rescued from Revonos when Merai breaks the chain binding him. In the non-Starchild arc, Drift gets thrown out of Hell for being too good of a disciple of Revonos: he's too strong and is willing to betray the Lord of Betrayal. He'll have brainwashing and a direct geas to be rescued from, but does that have the same impact as being physically, directly rescued and set free? I can work with it, but it will be more difficult.

Hallan

Re: My two cents Re: The Starchild Arc

ChrisBradford 1249571723|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'd like to point out that I plotted my own story, "Lessons in Motherhood" under the assumption that Starchild happens in May 708. While I can salvage certain plot elements to work around Starchild not happening, I feel that my work would be weakened in the process.

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1249611781|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

OK! A Rough survey by me has the following results
3 in favor of the corruption plot
3 in favor of going ahead with Star child as is
1 in favor of dropping a giant rock onto Metamor and killing everyone.

Ok so that last one is not exactly a real choice but it is starting to look good to me! ;)

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1249806358|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

All right this debate seems to be reaching an end. Anyone ELSE have comments or suggestions before I make a final choice?

Speak up now because once i decide the subject will be closed.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Hallan 1249832516|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Pick the rock! Pick the rock! ;)

Okay, now that I've had my obligatory silly moment… Misha, flip my vote. Having looked at the issue from one side, I then looked at the other: who has the least to lose. Raven has already said that he's focused on Metamor City, and Chris and I have both said we can change our plot lines to suit. In comparison, with the Starchild battle, I can tell that there are people who will consider walking away from the story setting, and I don't want that.

So cast my vote, along with my concerns that we keep as true to the character as we can, for the corruption of Merai.

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1249835815|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Is there a way we can do the vote more officially? Right now it seems very anecdotal.

And as for folks walking away from the story setting… Do not walk away because you don't like the Starchild or whatever else plot issue that we discuss here, that's not playing in the sandbox! We are a team of writers, a family here at Metamor. Sure, we have our disagreements and our spats. But we are family. I love all of you and am so grateful for seeing everybody so interested in making Metamor Keep a successful setting.

If one stops writing because one has lost interest, or one has accomplished what they set out to do, that's one thing. But please don't leave the setting even if you don't like the way things move forward.

And Misha, I say we figure out how better to do a vote before we make any declarations.

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1249842533|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Official vote here on the Star Child Plot
To keep this official and makes things a little plainer I am going to start an official vote thread here.
The rules are this: You have till Sunday August 16, 2009 10pm EST to vote. Any and all votes will be counted at that time. I will be making the final decision but I do want to go with what the most people want.

Choices:
1: Let the Star Child plot go thru as is. Unchanged or with minor changes
2: Go with the Merai corrupted plot
3: Other - state plainly what you have in mind

To vote simply post here and say something like I vote for ____

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1249847980|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'm going to abstain for the moment until I can sort out something with one of the writers who will be affected by this decision. It's not fair for me, who has written a ton already, to take an act that will hurt somebody trying to come into Metamor.

If and when I feel I've sorted this out, I will cast my official ballot.

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1250018250|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

hello? Anyone want to place a vote?

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1250019632|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I will likewise abstain. This whole discussion became necessary because I don't have time for writing MK right now, so it seems unfair for me to vote on it.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Pontos 1250024569|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Raven, could you please read the mail I sent you?
If you have already read it and were thinking on what to answer then ignore this :)

Re: The Starchild Arc

Ryx 1250036354|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I am willing to go whichever way the plot goes, but I realize that Raven will not be writing the Starchild event and it will be unlikely that anyone else will pick it up to carry it forward.

Even the idea of Merai's corruption will be incredibly complicated, far more so than I at first thought when I talked it over with Matthias. The politics and geographies Raven spoke about are well beyond my ability to grasp cogently. So even this story line will be challenging for someone to work with. However, like many 'world spanning' stories this one can take place entirely in the background of current stories and future writers need not be bogged down trying to figure out what's going on globally before they get into writing.

I vote we postpone.

Re: The Starchild Arc

RavenB 1250036794|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Raven, could you please read the mail I sent you?
If you have already read it and were thinking on what to answer then ignore this :)

Hi Pontos,

I have not received your email. Please send it to chriswlester (at) gmail (dot) com.

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1250421077|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I feel I have sorted things out with my friend and understand what they intend. Amazingly enough, I think as we will all see he has an even better storyline now. :-)

So I cast my vote for Merai's corruption.

I'll be on vacation this week, but when I get back, I'd like to get something started on this so that we can all be on the same page (for those of us who care).

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

Pontos 1250025777|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I place my vote on Merai's corruption but preferably only if the Starchild Day is postponed to a future date. That is, going with the "redemption" idea.
I chose this mainly for three reasons:

One, I'm going to introduce a character that is a celestial. Starchild Day would mean losing it since every lesser Aedra would get imprisoned on the Dreamlands in mid 708.
I don't mind that happening at a later time, since after all "killing" a character can make a plot interesting. Just not so soon.

Two, Merai's corruption will bring a new threat to Galendor as it was already stated. Sathmore falling in the hands of Merai, and also Lilith not losing most of her power and getting ahead with her plans deep in the Giantdowns.

Three, The actual Pantheon would still be there, preventing to have them as exploitable characters in the mortal realm and avoiding having only one big religion in Galendor.

I still want the Starchild Day to take place since that was how Raven originally envisioned the arc. But with Merai's corruption a lot of story possibilities would arise and in the end still having the same outcome, details aside.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Hallan 1250205229|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Cast my vote, along with my concerns that we keep as true to the character as we can, for the corruption of Merai.

Re: The Starchild Arc

Kit Sune 1250288152|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Considering that I do not actually have an active hand in whatever this ends up as, I'm going to throw my vote with what will make for the more interesting read for that I understand the general audience of MK to be. As such, while dropping a giant rock on Metamor WOULD be amusing… I'm going to say I think it best if we corrupt Merai. It is fully within reason for someone to become corrupted thinking they are doing something for the greater good while telling themselves they'll be careful and not go 'too far'. It's a slippery slope and not hard to see even someone with previous experience on the issue fall for it, especially since Merai's previous encounter with Suspira was a lot less subtle than this seems to be.

Furthermore with Nasoj weakened, Lilith not yet making her move, and the Marquis finally defeated, MK is slightly in need of a new villain to foil our characters against. Yes everyone is fully capable of coming up with stuff for their characters to do and personal problems to work through etc, but it doesn't give anything to really unify the characters like in the past. The relative peace has been a good time for people to enter the story verse (I count four new characters coming to the keep in November of 707 so far) and technically Lilith's still out there, but I've noticed a trend of stories away from conflict and more towards slice of life. I do like the latter, but I kind of miss the former as well. Maybe I'm just being picky and over rambly, but any plan giving MK another villain is a good plan in my book right now.

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1250546558|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ok. After a lot of thought on the matter I am making an official decision on this. We are going to go ahead with the plot where Merai is corrupted.

Of course this brings up more questions:
1 What exactly happens
2 How is this going to be written and by who.

Comments? Suggestions?

Re: The Starchild Arc

MatthiasRat 1250966022|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Given that several people have a vested interest in this, I think it best if we those of us who are interested in actually writing the Merai corruption arc get together and discuss what needs to be done, whose characters will be involved and in what capacity, and who will get to write what.

I volunteer to manage this task. This is with the understanding that I will not be making decisions for everyone, only that I will keep folks involved and focused.

Who else is interested in guiding the fate of Merai?

Dominus tecum

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1250994340|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I am always willing to help out with this!
who else wants in on the fun?

Re: The Starchild Arc

Pontos 1250996347|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'd like to help writing it :)

We can see what parts later, but judging by the current status of my own stories i would prefer not having to deal with large chunks of this one.
I'm very variable on that. I can either write 12k words in four days, or none in months -_-…

Re: The Starchild Arc

Hallan 1251032664|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Sounds dangerous. Count me in. ;)

Re: The Starchild Arc

MishaFox 1251426972|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

OK! The first thing we need to do is come up with a basic timeline of what happens and when.