Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

Summary:

A casual look at the shadow left behind in the wake of Suielman Empire

Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

Leo M Panther 01 Apr 2015 11:46

While 1 to 1 translations of real history with MK history don't always match up it found this thought amusing. As the Suielman Empire (http://mkworld.wikidot.com/org:suielman-empire) is explained it looks alot like the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was a nation with glory, prestige and influence that many sought to emulate after it fell. So I ended up wondering if any of the nations in the MK-world feel the same about the Suielman Empire?

Here's a few real world examples(Caution: Wikipedia content included):
The Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire). This nation formed out of the Eastern Roman empire after the fall of Rome. They always considered themselves as the continuation of the Roman legacy and their leaders (Basileus) the unbroken lineage of Emperors of Rome. They sought to reclaim what had been lost after the fall but were on all sides beset by pagans to the north, infighting and the new Mohammedan threat in east. The Byzantine empire after centuries of decline was finally fell to the Ottoman Empire in 1453 with the conquest of Constantinople.

The Sultanate of Rüm. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_Rum) With steady Muslim conquests of Anatolia in the 11th century an offshoot of the Seljuq dynasty founded the Sultanate of Rüm or Sultanate of Rome. They managed to conquer a great deal from the Byzantine empire in years to come but eventually were defeated and subjugated by the Mongol horde. All that remained of the former Sultanate would be incorporated in what would become the Ottoman Empire many centuries later, though their coins remained in use throughout the 14th century

The Holy Roman Empire. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire) Originally founded by Charlemagne in the 8th Century (December 25th Crowned by Pope Leo III) and after some initial strife revived by Emperor Otto I in 962. The HRE was to be a new Incarnation of the Roman Empire though with it power base more centered on the German states. Many a Prince of the HRE sought to become emperor and for centuries the HRE remained the dominant power in Europe. Many Emperors sought to consolidate power by passing reforms through the Imperial Diet but conflicting interests and a lot of wars would prevent alot. In the end the Holy Roman Empire broken by near constant wars, infighting and scheming was broken. On the 6th August 1806 the last Emperor (Francis II) abdicated after being defeated in battle by Napoleon. Signing a treaty that dissolved the empire (Treaty of Pressburg)

That all being said is there any such nation within the world of Metamor that claims to be the continuation, the reincarnation or the has the ambition to be as glorious as the Suielman Empire was?

"There once was a dream that was the Suielman Empire, will we ever see its like again?" - Abandoned piece of parchment found in the Metamor Library during archiving. No author known dated at ca 200 CR on a Thursday

Thank you for listening,

Leo M. Panther

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 01 Apr 2015 17:24

An interesting question. The one country that does have pretensions of being the Suielman empire is the Sathmore empire which does control a good chunk of territory. Their leader is even called an Emperor. But they control only a small portion of what once was the Empire.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 02 Apr 2015 16:45

There are several units in the Sathmore army that claim heritage to Suielman Legions. They are called legions and the soldiers do dress like the old soldiers.
Here is the history of one such unit:
3rd (Gallecia) Legion: Emblem: A bear rearing on hind legs protecting a cub. One of the oldest surviving legions. Stationed in what is now Tullwine in +150CR. The legion was heavily involved in the intense and desperate fighting to stop the Invasion of the Midlands in 150. Suffered extremely heavy casualties but were key in beating off the invasion. A measure of the casualties is one stark fact. The legion had 4,250 men in 149 (It was one of the few legions at close to full strength). A roster from cr151 reported only 112 of those original legionnaires still alive. Unit was rebuilt and still is an honored part of the Sathmore Empire and was renamed the Grizzly Bears in honor of their fighting skills. They still proudly use the original Suielman standard - thought to be almost a thousand years old!

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

Radioactive Toast 02 Apr 2015 23:38

One intersting fascet if one wants to try and draw an analogy between the Suielman, Sathmore, Rome and the Byzantines is the nomenclature, especially with what people call themselves vs what others call them.

The most interesting thing about the Byzantine Empire was that the word "Byzantine" wasn't even coined until 1557, over a century after Mehmet II conquered Constantinople. Originally it was established as merely the eastern half of the Roman Empire once administration of said Empire was split in two, and it happened to be the half that survived another thousand years. But the inhabitants themselves never actually stopped calling themselves "Romans," or rather Ῥωμαῖοι" (or Rhomaioi transliterated). They called themselves Romans, they called their empire the Roman empire, and all their Slav and Muslim neighbors called them Romans.

The only people who didn't were from the Latin West, and it had *everything* to do with legitimacy. The tipping point was really in 800, when Charlemagne was crowned by the Pope as "Emperor of the Romans." Bad blood between the lands of the Latin west and the Greek east only got worse from there, all the way to 1204 and the 4th crusade. The latins pretty much refused to call them "Romans" after that, and often refered to it as "Empire of the Greeks" as a term of derision and to try and remove their legitimacy as a continuation of the Roman Empire.

Now, how this fits into the MK verse is interesting. We do have a similar parallel in that in both Rome and the Suielman there was a secondary culture aside from that of the founders that had a long established history (the Centili tribes whom the Sathmore descend from are described by the wiki as the first human culture in the west to develop their own full blown writing system that doesn't descend from Elvish), and they managed to keep a great deal of their ethnic identity throughout the Imperial era. Like RL, though in different circumstances (RL the eastern half of the Roman Empire was far richer and more developed so Constantine and his successors focused far more on it, whereas I believe the wiki states that with Sathmore the Emperor had more political support there), emperors moved court to this secondary culture and eventually assimilated, while in the original ethnic zone imperial authority was overrun by barbarians or was usurped.

This leads to several interesting questions as to how this came about, and indeed how Pyralis and Sathmore view their own legitimacy and that of the other. IRL every aspiring conqueror and their grandmother sought to emulate Rome and had some impossibly distant hope of taking up its mantle as the empire of the known world. I don't see this tendency being any less in the MK verse, actually I see it somewhat strengthened.

Actually come to think of it, I wonder if during the consolidation of the Pyralian confederation the Patriarch had some sort of role in it. If so, it could be a rough analogue of the HRE (albeit apeing its most decentralized phases which ironically only really occurred in early modern history).

But what I really think would be interesting is in how the Sathmore refer to themselves. Perhaps they aren't offended if you call them Sathmoran (IRL medieval Greeks would become highly offended if you called them "Hellene," as that term at the time was used to refer to ancient, prechristian pagans), but I still think they would be offended if you tried to use it in a way to somehow imply they were NOT Suielman, because to do so would be an attack on their legitimacy.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MatthiasRat 04 Apr 2015 10:47

I would certainly say that the Patriarch had some role in the formation of the Pyralian Confederation in that priests and monks would have been sent to evangelize the place!

Which adds another interesting wrinkle in the comparison is that the Ecclesia still has its leadership in Yesulam. In our time of course, early Christian leadership was smashed in Jerusalem and St. Peter ended up in Rome so that the primacy of Peter's See meant that the chief Bishop, whom we know as the Pope, would be the Bishop of Rome. Further, as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire with the Edict of Milan in the early 300s, the Bishops that did exist slowly began to take on more and more administrative roles within their diocese, which was an administrative unit devised by the Roman Empire itself!

I think we can draw parallels to this in the case of Pyralis. Perhaps there was even a Northern and a Southern administrative split in the Suielman Empire (present day Sathmore and Pyralis) and while the southern half converted (by and large) the northern half did not. And so the Ecclesia's Bishops became centered in the old administrative units, and this practice and nomenclature was also used when the Ecclesia gained prominence in Sonngefilde and Kitchlande.

Also, these conversions would have been happening with regular people from the earliest days, so not long after 200 I think is when things fell apart for the Suielman Empire and we see the conversion of this southern half.

Note that this is all speculation and may in fact be contradicted by the Wiki as it stands. Just a Rat typing something up on an early morning with his coffee! :-)

Dominus tecum

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

Greyflank 04 Apr 2015 11:34

I haven't read much about the Suielman Empire yet, but I am interested in the apparent contradiction between the "modern" attitude of anti-magic (except prayer) and the amount of magical artifacts that just keep showing up presumably from that source.

I do very much like that contradiction, mind you, if my feeble mind is putting that together correctly. But some less scholarly folks might call people on it.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

Leo M Panther 05 Apr 2015 14:38

I used the name Byzantine Empire or Byzantium more so I knew what I was talking about. Because that's how I recognize the purple blob in the bottom right corner of the map in Crusader Kings 2 and you kind of root for the Purple Phoenix to rise again at the start of Europa Universalis IV, even if it never does. I have thought about doing a total conversion mod for Ck2 to make the Metamor Keep world a playable place similar to the Game of Thrones mod and the like. Assuming I ever figure out how to do that. But that is not really relevant to what we're discussing here.

Part of the reason I wondered about the pretenders to the Suielman Empire is because I wondered if Nasoj used some pretence of a claim to the old Empire. Perhaps some old banner, regalia he stole from the lutin tribes dating back to last hard Emperor or some such. After all, if legitimacy is a concern, having a casus belli, even an absolutely fabricated one, would be par for the course. Not that one really needs a reason to wage war if you're evil, but having a such a CB might bring in greedy nobles to help their own schemes and plots.

Another aspect that I was curious about is the religious angle. Now the HRE and Byzantium(ERE) might've been competing for legitimacy to the old Empire but they also had religious differences with Byzantium being the bastion of Orthodox Christianity and the HRE championing the newfangled Catholic Christianity. NOW, that doesn't translate to MK-verse because there never was an Orthodox Ecclesia. I guess having completely different faiths in both Empires must've made maintaining a hold on dissident factions and keeping potential heresies in check a lot easier.

As for the Pyralian Confederation, regardless of which stage of HRE it might look like, with church lords meddling with secular lords would set up power struggles like for instance Patriarch vs. Anti-Patriarch shenanigans and the Patriarch setting up Anti-(insert Feudal lord title here). Which according to the wikipedia article on Anti-popes was one of the complaints that caused the desire for Reformation to trigger.

Which brings me to another question. What were the complaints raised by the Rebuilders to cause them to split off and set up their own sect? I'll admit I don't know why protestants and reformed split off from the catholics beyond knowing that Maarten Luther nailed a note to a church saying "Hang on a minute." and subsequently got credited with/blamed for starting the Reformation. In broad terms I know it has to do with having a more 'pure' form of faith, whatever that means.
I have no idea how to translate that to MK-verse. A bad case of having insufficient data which isn't helped with the wikidot page on Rebuilders being non-existent.
If there is any interest on expanding that I'd have a few questions:
-Is there a centre of reformation?
-Does it have a religious head?(I know protestants don't have one)
-Is there a person credited with/blamed for starting the movement?
-Are they actively being hunted for being heretics?

I'm curious about that seeing how the reformation tore the HRE apart with Catholic League versus the Protestant League coming to blows in the Thirty years' war while also being involved in the Eighty years' war and finally being more or less resolved in the peace of Westphalia. Could such a conflict happen to the Pyralian Confederation once the threats from outside become less important than the threats from within?

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 05 Apr 2015 16:41

The Rebuilders have a good sized section here: http://mkworld.wikidot.com/religion:start
Basically their complaints are the same as the Protestants - corruption in the Main faith.

They dont have 1 leader - they are too divided to have one person in control. They have settled into 12 distinct groups that all tend to stick together. Many followers call them heretics and attack them at every chance. How the Rebuilders are treated by the Ecclesia varies but tends to be hostile. Some Patriarchs have launched vicious and blood purges to try and wipe them out. These bloody purges have left thousands dead and ironically actually led to an increase in the number of Rebuilders. Other Patriarchs have simply tried to ignore them or tried for a more peaceful recovering of these people. Lately some Eccelsia are starting to consider a live and let live policy. With the serious threat of the Lightbringers some see the Rebuilders as the least of their problems. For their part some Rebuilders see the only way to survive is by violence. They believe that the Follower faith must be cleansed by fire and sword. Thankfully such violent fanatics usually do not survive long but they tend to leave a wide trail of death and destruction. This of course reinforces the ideas of similar fanatics on the Follower side leading to still more violence.

There are 12 main Rebuilder groups (each with at least 2,000 members in Marigund) and at least 125 other smaller ones which ranging in size from a score of members to several hundred. The groups each differ is some way. Some allow women priests (a fairly common thing) and others allow priests to marry (also common - 1 group differs from the Ecclesia in ONLY that respect). In 1 group all priests MUST marry. Some only do services in Siuelish while others do it in whatever local language there is (Very common!). 1 group has rejected the concept of priests altogether - instead members take turns leading the services. All share a common thread in the belief that the Ecclesia have strayed from the 'Real' faith in some way. Exact numbers are hard to come by as only in Marigund are they accepted and can openly display their ideas and membership. At least another 300 groups are suspected to exist scattered throughout the Midlands, hidden in small groups.

Some of the smaller groups can be VERY strange. Some hold ideas that are far removed from the Ecclesia and Rebuilder ideas. At least 1 group rejects the concept of social classes and its members live in what can best be described as a commune. Another rejects not only social classes but concepts like marriage and just have temporary partners. 1 group believes that a person can transcend their human form by good deeds and enough prayer alone. These groups tend to be small and live in isolated places but are always mentioned by Ecclesia who want to stamp out the Rebuilders.

There are 4 smaller groups that are technically not Rebuilder but are classified as such for lack of any other exact category. When the Ecclesia were formed not all Followers joined. There were a small number of groups that remained separate or who have drifted away over the centuries. With travel and communication being so difficult over long distances this was bound to occur with people far removed from Yesulem.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MatthiasRat 05 Apr 2015 17:59

The Ecclesia has been there from the start so I'm not sure what Follower folks Misha thinks are there who didn't 'join'. The Rebuilders are by and large mostly a Midlands phenomenon with only a small presence in Pyralis and elsewhere.

Dominus tecum

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

Radioactive Toast 05 Apr 2015 21:22

Hmm… perhaps there are groups that were simply so far flung from the main body of the Ecclesia that there wasn't much incentive or possibly opportunity for them to operate within one communion?

One RL example I could think of to draw on would be the Nestorians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism . Distant from even the most far flung pretensions of Roman authority, they were never in much of a position to fall under the Pope's sway, and when there was pressure it was so far it was minor enough to be brushed aside. The Nestorians spread as far as China during the middle ages (they were quite widespread, until the Mongols decided they didn't like them and largely wiped them out almost throughout the whole of Central Asia).

In the MK verse it's possible such groups exist in the farthest southern reaches of the Southlands, in Galendor's orient, maybe even Fan Shoar or Irombi. Heck we could even say there is/was at some point such a group in the Giantdowns. They don't have to be any appreciable minority in whatever lands that they live in, just enough to be there. It's possible that through various attempts to interpret history in Yesulam (Historiography is a beast that is absolutely riddled with the biases of whatever era wrote the histories), resulted at some point in a sentiment that ALL Follower groups who don't acknowledge the primacy of the Patriarch as "Rebuilder."

…actually come to think of it, how smooth WAS Yesulam's assertion of control of the vast majority of the world's Followers in the earliest centuries? Could there have been some analogue to Arianism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism that stood as a rival? That would have made things very interesting.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 06 Apr 2015 05:16

What I meant Matt was to highlight the differences between Sathmore and Pyralis. The Follower teachings took root in Pyralis (85% Follower) but not in Sathmore (85% Lightbringer).

And the Rebuilders are only openly accepted in Marigund. In Sathmore they hate ALL Followers regardless of the little details like what language they use in their rituals.

Little has been done on the Early faith as it is in the distant past. I doubt the takeover was as painless as the Ecclesia portray but not as bloody and ugly as their enemies portray it.

But I do see it as probably that such small sects/groups do exist in places distant from the holy land. But they are just that - Small.

But absolutely nothing has been done with the Southern continent.

And please let us not forget this is MK and not the real world.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MatthiasRat 06 Apr 2015 07:52

I reiterate, there was no takeover by the Ecclesia as if it were some outside force. The hierarchical structure grew up from the communities themselves. It is far more likely that there are groups that have been cut off from the Ecclesia due to distance and/or changing political conditions. The Copts and the Christians in Ethiopia are one such historical example. (The Nestorians are a bad example since they were actually heretics before they were split away).

Nothing has been done with the Southern continent???!? You must have missed a few details from my stories! Bishop Moeran of Sondeshara… Bishop Jothay of Eavey… the Driheli Knights of Stuthgansk… all of them from the Southern Continent! It has been stated that the majority of Sondeckis are Followers, so much so that they have their own Bishop. And while not all of Sonngefilde is Follower, it had three major centers of the faith that have been mentioned, Eavey, Stuthgansk, and Fellos (which was destroyed). And I believe the Bishop from Boreaux in Kitchlande was named Gavroche, and we had seen how at least Yonson of the Weathermongers was a Follower. So really, other than the Kankoran and their allies, there hasn't been anybody mentioned from the Southlands who isn't of the Ecclesia (though it has been stated enclaves of Lothanasi do still exist too).

It is MK, absolutely, and not the real world. But we do gain insights from the real world to better understand how history unfolds turns in on itself.

Dominus tecum

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MatthiasRat 06 Apr 2015 07:58

While I have no doubt there have been bad times where a heresy like Arianism seemed ascendant, given the time frame for the setting, such a heresy would not have been able to gain as much power and breadth as Arianism did. In our history, Arianism was only just finally dying out around 700 - 800 AD (it had a lifespan of about 400 years in different communities).

The sophistication of the Ecclesia and its various orders does seem more on par with the High Middles Ages than Late Antiquity. I suggest part of this stems from the fact that some Medieval institutions (such as knightly orders) as well as certain technological innovations lacking to the Romans appeared much earlier in Metamor Keep's world than in our own.

Dominus tecum

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 06 Apr 2015 17:27

Matt. my old friend. Relax.

What i mean was those communities chose to become Follower. How did the early Ecclesia become organized into the very large group it is now? I know the early church simply grew and spread thru Europe and the middle east.

For groups cut off from the main part of the Follower faith by distance or terrain they are sure to develop differently. Those early groups in real life are interesting but some could be strange. Nor was it an ancient thing.The Cathars were in existence in the 12th century and they are VERY strange - even by modern standards. They controlled a good portion of southern France at one point before being wiped out. But that has little to do with Christianity and more with using force to keep political control.

We borrow heavily from the real world. Sometimes i think too much. But so much of history is so cool! And the current level of technology for the whole MK universe is a bit hard to judge but I figure it is also the High Middle ages roughly just before the start of the Renaissance. And Rome's a(and the Suiielman) success wast due to their technology - it was due to their organizational skills.

Matt please give me a list of the southern continent characters and places and I'll add them to the Wiki.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

Radioactive Toast 07 Apr 2015 13:55

The Cathars are interesting, but tbh I don't think they're a very good example of a geographically isolated Christian sect. Medieval Christians in China, however, (yes, they did exist) would illustrate such a scenario nicely. With almost the whole of Asia between them and Rome, there was little that could be done to have decent communications with the West, if even at all. Though it's worth repeating that these groups were always relatively small religious minorities wherever they were found in Asia.

Though there is the example of the Ethiopian church, which has been a majority in its lands for most of its history; a similar problem of transportation and communication over large distances of terrain applies. I have given thought sometimes of perhaps making a land somewhere in the east of Galendor that has a Follower majority, though it's only ever remained a rough idea that I haven't put much thought into.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 07 Apr 2015 16:59

I never knew they had Christianity in China that early!

To be honest I haven't give that much thought to outside Galendor. I am added more to the southern continent since Matt pointed out that a lot HAS been added there.

Look at this map http://transform.to/~ravenb/pics/mkworld_political.jpg and look to the far right - there is Irombi and FanShoar. Full continents that we literally have almost nothing listed for them. I can see some isolated Follower groups way out there!

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MatthiasRat 18 Apr 2015 08:35

Misha, I just provided you with a list of names and places. One of these years I'll have time to post stuff about them on the Wiki.

Dominus tecum

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 05 Apr 2015 01:13

The empire was slowly coming apart politically and socially before the Lutin Invasion in 150. The invasion brought out that split. The 2 groups simply split and went their own ways. The Pyralian Kingdoms wound up going with the loose Confederation and dropped all pretensions of being the old empire. The remember 'The Good Old Days' as a time long gone.

Sathmore rallied around the last bits of Imperial rule left. They thought of themselves as THE Suielman empire. Their army soldiers call themselves Legionaries and proudly carry old empire standards into battle. (The one standard is at least a thousand years old and dates from the early empire). Their Rulers call themselves emperors. The current one is Emperor Prætextatus Aegidius a Suielman name. I can see them as stinking thinking of themselves as a continuation of the old empire. The would call themselves THE Suielman empire but no one else would. Certainly not in the Pyralian Kingdoms which would think of them as the successor to the old empire not the continuation. Much to the annoyance of Sathmore.

Since cr150 the two countries have gone different ways. Sathmore clings to the 'Old Way's and remains Lightbringer but Pyralis went VERY strongly Follower.

Those are my thoughts.

sathmore-empire
pyralian-confederation
Invasion of the Midlands and the Fall of the Suielman Empire, 150 CR

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 05 Apr 2015 01:20

But regardless and what they think politically all see the Original empire that fell in 150 as "The Good Old Days" and compare what happened then to their modern world with envy. Certainly they do not have the organization to match the great engineering project the empire did.

The same thing happened in Europe after the fall of the Roman empire. The Coliseum in Rome was the worlds largest until 1912 and their road system wasn't matched until the 20th century. And a lot of Roman roads are STILL in use almost 2,000 years after their completion.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 08 Apr 2015 17:19

I was inspired by Leo's little quote that started this whole thread. The following will be in my next story:

Nestorius found the scroll amidst a small pile of others on a shelf labeled 'Suielman Personal Correspondences.' Other scrolls held information about crop harvests and estimated cattle yields. But this scroll held a crudely drawn but surprisingly detailed map of the valley that listed all the surviving towns and villages. With the map was a long text listing the population for each town. Valuable information that would help the mage calculate the post invasion population of the valley. It was dated Cr200, Thursday.

Below that was a detailed population list (obviously copied from some older and probably long lost document) of the valley from cr 148, two years before the invasion. It listed every town and village with a detailed listing of the population for each. Right below that were two words in stark, red ink so different from the black used for the rest. "ALL GONE."

But what really caught his attention was at the very bottom in a different handwriting and was a simple statement. "There once was a dream that was the Suielman Empire, will we ever see it's like again?"

Nest stared at that statement for a long time. he remembered the beautiful city of Camulodunum he had been so privileged to see. He thought of the roads, aqueducts and of all the amazing structures the empire had built. How the peace it had brought had lasted for centuries. All replaced by the chaos of the current world.

He picked up a pen and carefully added his own thoughts. "I sincerely hope so."

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

Leo M Panther 09 Apr 2015 18:41

Neat. Nice to know I can inspire. Happy belated birthday.

Now that this thread has enriched the world and the wiki, given food for thought and inspired people it might be nice to close things off by ending up closer to home. Let's talk about characters under our control.
Are there any Characters (PC & NPC) that have roots leading back to the Suielman Empire? And with that I mean a bloodline stretching back that far or simply having lived long enough to actually have been there.

Not for any serious reason I'm just curious and it might make a nice factoid for that characters wikipage. If you don't want to tell because it's a plot point you're working to get in your story or if the information is already common knowledge that's fine.

For instance:
My character Marto Gladebearer, has a Suielish connection. One of his ancestors was a right-hand man and personal guard to an Emperor. Upon retirement he was granted a plot of land in Metamor Valley, there he settled with his family. During the Lutin invasion the Gladebearer family was displaced, at least those weren't killed in the defence. When the family later returned hoping to find anything they had to leave behind they found nothing. This included deeds to the land they rightfully owned. Never the less they decided to stay and resettle in the hopes that the deeds would be found in some archive. Over the course of time they forgot about the deeds and focussed on surviving as best they could. Unbeknownst to them a copy of the deeds had been kept within Metamor Keep but had not been properly archived. The archiving of the documents of that era would not be finished until March 26st, 705 CR
Marto is unaware of this heritage and believes himself to be as common a commoner as they come.

Thank you for reading.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 11 Apr 2015 02:59

Many characters can have Suielman history - they were in the valley for over 700 years. Caroline is descended from a Suielman legionnaire but hasn't given it much thought till recently. I have a story idea where she starts to research that part of her family history.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

LurkingWolf 11 Apr 2015 14:58

One thing I would caution would be that you need to be very careful making your character descended from a landed noble so that they can become one themselves. At this point in history I really doubt that Suielish property deeds are widely regarded as having any meaning. If they did, I would expect a rash of forgers staking claims to whatever property they like by falsifying Suielish deeds. If you want to have a character's ancestral lands returned to them somehow, you will really need to prove their connection without a shadow of a doubt (really tough to do as ancestral artifacts may be easily stolen), and have whatever noble is currently in charge of the lands in question have a good political reason to forfeit the lands, whether to appear magnanimous or because the territory was already contested for instance.

Alterately, if you're of the opinion that the peaceful method sucks, your character COULD try to raise a small army to occupy the land, perhaps not enough to legitimately defend it, but enough to make mobilizing enough soldiers to dislodge him more trouble than it's worth.

Just a few thoughts.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

Leo M Panther 11 Apr 2015 19:43

That did occur to me. I never intended to use the Suielish background for that. I suppose technically my character would be a landless vagabond with a very weak claim. He'd need a lot political support if he wanted to claim the land either way. Which is something I'm sure the local lords and especially Duke Thomas have no interest in. At most I imagine the claim would be used as a vague threat by someone with actual power, but that's only if it became more or less public knowledge.

As it stands I've got it planned that the powers that be use this noble lineage claim stuff to rub his nose in something and teach him a lesson.

Aside from that. Could Duke Thomas grant someone he deemed worthy a plot of land? Are there any requirements they'd need to meet?

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 11 Apr 2015 19:52

I agree on that. Suielman titles and deeds wouldn't be worth much in most places. In Europe before WW1 there were loads of nobility with grandiose titles but nothing else. No money or land. I remember the one noble in (of all places) Luxemburg in the 1980's who was a full blooded Baron. Unfortunately all his lands were in the Ukraine and had been confiscated by the communists 70 years before. He made money off of tourists who got a kick out of meeting a real live Baron. Still being able to prove a noble ancestor would be cool and at least earn you some respect.

If the land in question is still unoccupied it would give them some cause to be able to claim it. Still it sounds like the plot of a good story. The character finding the deeds and the struggle to have them recognized.

A really nasty and cool twist is the fact that names have changed in 500+ years. This could lead to the following scene:

Thomas nodded his head. "I do recognize your ownership of 200 acres of land in and around the town of Altrinum. As well as the town itself." There was a moment of pregnant silence. "Anyone know where Altrinum is?"

All he got in response was silence.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 11 Apr 2015 22:18

Thomas as Duke technically 'owns' all of the land in the valley and can give it to whoever he wants. I used quotes as with feudalism things were always complicated. But he could make someone a knight and in the middle ages rewarding you loyal people with land was a common thing.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

AmigaDragon 12 Apr 2015 07:33

Thomas has (or soon will, depending on your timeframe) granted land to Charles.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 15 Apr 2015 17:19

Good point. With so much empty land in the valley Thomas could give such land to a person as a reward.

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MatthiasRat 18 Apr 2015 08:39

The Valley is somewhat limited in its geographic dimensions so there isn't THAT much land to be parceled out. The Narrows was a contested strip between Baron Barnhardt and Baron Avery. Duke Thomas made Charles a Baron in charge of that land (in about 710 CR) in order to put an end to the feud (and to reward Charles for his many sacrifices for the sake of Metamor).

I'm not saying Thomas cannot do that for other characters of course, I just wanted to emphasize that any such plots of land will be relatively small for now.

Dominus tecum

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

MishaFox 21 Apr 2015 17:22

A really nasty twist I thought of is Thomas gives land and title to a person he dislikes. The person discovers the land is NORTH of the valley and in the Giantdowns. An area that had once been owned by the duke in the past and technically still the dukes. The person can take the land if the 10,000 lutins on it let him ;)

Re: Pretenders to the Suielman Empire

Leo M Panther 21 Apr 2015 22:00

That sounds like a story line I once read in an Asterix comic. Where a drunkard of legionnaire is granted Asterix' village by Julius Caesar. Could work though the Duke would've to be very vague on where it is.

"Thank you for this generous gift, my Lord, but …uh… but where exactly is it?"

The duke glanced over to his steward, who was busy suppressing a grin, before answering straight-faced "Oh, it is a bit north-ish close to the Giant's Dike. You'll love it, acres of virgin soil, unspoiled natural beauty and many people ready to welcome you with open swords-ARMS. Real friendly folk."

"And to think I believed the rumour that you didn't like me." The office-door opened and closed quickly followed by a loud bellowing laugh that echoed down the hall.

"Whatever gave you that idea?" The Duke asked slyly

Still, that land would have been drifting out ducal control for a while now. It'd have to be real fool to fall for that or a young hot-blood seeking to make a name by reconquista-ing that land for his liege hoping to get something out of the effort.