MK Inspiration
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Started by: MishaFoxMishaFox
On: 1180762111|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Number of posts: 37
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Summary:
Where do YOU get your ideas?
MK Inspiration
MishaFoxMishaFox 1180762111|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Been wondering where everyone get's their ideas from. Care to share yours?

I tend to do a LOT of research when I am writing. For my story 'Whispers from the Past' I spent a long time researching ancient Egypt. I wound up buying several Osprey publishing books on the subject. now I'm writing another Whispers story inspired by Ancient Rome - so out came my books on the Roman empire. I've also found some cool websites.

It's no accident that the Long Scouts closely resemble the modern Rangers (Now where are those books on the Rangers & Green Beret?) and the Rangers from Lord of the Rings (Who has my copy of Return of the King?).

http://mkworld.wikidot.com/inspiration - I've added some books that I am always looking at. What books are you always looking at?

unfold MK Inspiration by MishaFoxMishaFox, 1180762111|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
RavenBRavenB 1180808922|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Been wondering where everyone get's their ideas from.

Schenectady, New York. I thought everyone knew that. ;-)

More often than not, my problem is trying to avoid getting ideas from places. When I see something cool in a book or movie or TV show, my gut reaction is to think That's awesome! I should put that in a story! The problem, of course, is that if you let yourself do this you're basically just ripping off other people's ideas and making your own pale imitations of them. I have to fight against that instinct every time I watch or read something that really captures my interest. Some ideas are really cool but wouldn't serve the story world I'm writing in at that particular time; others might not seem horribly out of place, but they would be recognizable as rip-offs from other stories, so they aren't appropriate to use if you want to write at a professional level.

It's really easy for a story world to fall into "kitchen sink" mode, where you throw in everything you think is cool and you end up with an unworkable mess. My first series of novellas, a space opera setting, fell victim to that problem; imagine a 16-year-old trying to make a story hold together with elements of Star Wars, Star Trek, murder mystery, UFO lore, anthro fiction, vampires, telepaths, Tom Clancy-style political thriller, and a little bit of This Present Darkness thrown in as well. Those stories helped me get better at the technical aspects of writing, but the plot was a disaster. Even when I started putting together MK2K, I was still doing it, and I've since had to go back and think carefully about which elements served the overall story and which ones needed to be downplayed or eliminated. That's why you don't see, for example, blasters or automatons in MK2K. (Well, okay, there is one automaton — Omega — but he's a relic of a bygone age.) That's also why there isn't a lot of focus on the furry side of the Curse in MK2K; I realized that the animal forms of most of the anthro characters in Metamor are purely cosmetic. Other than when Wanderer and the Duke were turned mindless, how often does an MK character's animal form really play in to that character's psychology? Most of these characters could be completely human and nothing significant about their characters would change. Because of that, I've been minimizing the role that theriomorphs play in MK2K until I can think of something to do with them that is both interesting and serves the larger story.

Overall, then, my writing process has relatively little to do with trying to come up with ideas. Instead, I have a huge cloud of ideas floating around in my head — thanks to all of the books, movies and TV shows that I've soaked up over the years — and I winnow them down until I come to a subset of those ideas that will work together to tell the story I want to tell. In the process, I try to strip away anything that is too distinctly associated with any one existing piece of fiction. I break things down to their component parts and figure out which parts will work for me in what I'm currently trying to do.

Example: Vampires. Oodles and oodles of stuff has been written about vampires. You've got Dracula in all his incarnations, Buffy, Anne Rice, the White Wolf books, and fantasy novels like Jim Butcher's Dresden Files and Kim Harrison's Hollows series, to name just a few. Each has some cool ideas that make for good storytelling, but you can't have all of them. Out of that big cloud of ideas, I had to make choices — Do vampires have souls? Are they really undead? Do they have reflections? What harms them, and why? etc. — to figure out what my vampires would look like. Those choices, in turn, implied certain things about vampire society and vampire psychology, and those in turn suggested specific stories that I could tell with that type of vampire. I could have made different choices, and they wouldn't necessarily have been better or worse — but they would have led to a different set of possible stories that could be told. The same is true of how I handled psionics or magic: I narrowed down my options to establish the mechanics, which then suggested the society, which gave rise to the possible stories that could be told. Of course, the way that I pick my options is often decided by certain key plot elements that I wanted to play with, so it's a bit of an iterative process. You start out with a question (e.g., "What would a murder investigation look like if the cops and criminals could use magic?"), it leads to world-building, and that can lead you to refine or revise the ideas that you started with in the first place.

That's how I operate at least half the time. The rest of the time I'm inspired not by plot-related questions, but by a particular character. Sometimes characters just seem to show up without you really knowing why, and their existence suggests certain stories that can be told with them. As Mark Twain said:

"If you invent two or three people and turn them loose in your manuscript, something is bound to happen to them — you can't help it; and then it will take you the rest of the book to get them out of the natural consequences of that occurrence, and so first thing you know, there's your book all finished up and never cost you an idea."

For me, this sort of thing usually happens after I've been building a story world for a while. That's how I got The Muse, in fact. Callie Linder and Will Kerenson didn't have anything to do with the main story arc I was envisioning for MK2K at that time, but one night I was walking along the street and composing mental narration of my life when I was struck by the absurdity of what I was doing. It occurred to me that it would be a really entertaining trait for a story character, and the concept for Will popped into my head almost instantly. Of course, to make it an interesting story I knew I would have to take this self-absorbed, mundane writer and stick him squarely in the middle of circumstances he was completely unprepared to deal with. I'd previously seen an article in Dragon magazine about planetouched characters with the blood of chaotic outsiders, and the idea of attaching poor Will to a character who was an embodiment of chaos struck me as the perfect match-up. The MK2K setting was already there waiting for me to use, so it wasn't hard to envision some things that might happen to Callie and Will to get them into trouble. From that point it was just a matter of working out the details. And the best part of it all is that, once they had been created, I found other things for them to do that would naturally tie them in with the overall story arc, so my bigger setting was enriched by the fact that these characters had popped into my head.

The best advice I can give to someone who's looking for ideas is to read broadly. Read fiction in all different genres. Read non-fiction — Popular Science, National Geographic and Discover can put all sorts of interesting notions into your head. Read gaming books and magazines. Watch the History Channel. Look at fantasy and sci-fi artwork. Listen to music. Ideas are as plentiful as oxygen; the tricky part is sifting them down into something coherent. :)

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by RavenBRavenB, 1180808922|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
MatthiasRatMatthiasRat 1180908483|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Your comment on furry characters being just as good if they were human is utter baloney. The furriness of the characters is key in my stories. That Charles is a rat influences everything he does. Ditto for the rest of my characters.

That you don't see how to make furriness essential to a character does not in the least mean they are less interesting characters for the rest of us. It is not a fault in furriness, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped saying it was.

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by MatthiasRatMatthiasRat, 1180908483|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
VirmirVirmir 1180923693|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Avoiding the "humans in fur coats" problem can be pretty challenging (though fun!) I think I've managed to accomplish this in a few of my stand alone short stories, but I really think I can do better in my MK tales. I think I'm a better writer than I was six month ago, and I sometimes find myself wishing I'd set things up just a little differently. :)

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by VirmirVirmir, 1180923693|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
MatthiasRatMatthiasRat 1180909985|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I often find my inspiration in the natural beauty around me. As I said before, I lived in the midst of the Appalachian mountains. Every time I went outdoors, then and now, I get the urge to work on Metamor Keep. For me, it has always been intimately connected.

Sometimes I get ideas that I want to try out on a limited scale. After reading some George R. R. Martin, I decided to use a little low fantasy ideas in my story 'Never Again a Man'.

Ideas can come from many different places. But you do have to be careful not to try to put too much into any one story. It's a tale, not a buffet.

Ut Prosim

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by MatthiasRatMatthiasRat, 1180909985|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
MysticMystic 1180911636|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

low fantasy? Not a term I'm familiar with.

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by MysticMystic, 1180911636|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
VirmirVirmir 1180923755|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

To be perfectly honest, my biggest inspiration has been MK itself. Up until I graduated college two years back, I had zero interest in reading and witting at all. Then one day I discovered the TSA archives (along with a part of myself :) ) and MK from there. I've read very little by professional authors, and most of my influence has been from amateurs who write just for fun. People who create for nothing more than personal gratification and/or enjoyment I have the utmost respect for.

Of course, I've plenty of non literary influences. A lot of video games I played during childhood have left their mark, and I remain an avid player of classic games. (Much cheaper hobby than playing boring modern stuff. :) ) Game design is another one of my hobbies, and a couple of ideas poke their way into my stories sometimes.

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by VirmirVirmir, 1180923755|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
MishaFoxMishaFox 1180924450|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Low fantasy has several meanings but the biggest is a fantasy setting with a low amount of magic and the supernatural. Here is a Wikipedia entry on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_fantasy

"To be perfectly honest, my biggest inspiration has been MK itself." Thanks Virmir - that is a very great compilent to MK itself and to all the writers in it! That of course now includes you too!

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by MishaFoxMishaFox, 1180924450|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
MishaFoxMishaFox 1180926831|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Doing any fantasy writing is hard when you have nonhumans. Getting into the feeling and thinking of them is hard. I have to admit i am guilty of the 'Humans in fur coats' syndrome. I have been working harder to make my furries feel and act like furries. Getting that furriness right really enhances the stories.

But you also need to avoid using their furriness as a crutch and replacement for a plot. For example: Star Wars - It has a lot of aliens (Cheewbacca has to be the ultimate furry!) but remove the aliens and flashy special effects and you still have a fine story with a great plot!

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by MishaFoxMishaFox, 1180926831|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
FoxMarineFoxMarine 1180931921|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Very True! The fur coats syndrome is one that I am currently attempting to deal with in the story I am working on an I think I nearly have it, just gotta finish the ending now.

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by FoxMarineFoxMarine, 1180931921|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
RavenBRavenB 1180979277|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

<nods> I think that one trick to making anthro fiction memorable is that you almost have to treat the anthros like alien species. A person who is operating with feline or lupine instincts is not going to think the same way as a human, and an herbivorous species like a deer or a rabbit is going to be even less like us. The sort of society that people would build, if driven by instincts other than a primate's, would differ greatly from the sort that we have built.

In Metamor, of course, no such society has been built. The heroes were all changed into theriomorphs after they had already become adults, so their sense of self is already strongly established. For them, the instincts that they now have to deal with do not match their existing psyche, which would realistically lead to some very serious cognitive dissonance. The trouble for us, as writers, is that we don't know what it feels like to be, say, a raccoon, or a badger, or a wolverine, or a hawk. We can guess at some things, but these are not creatures whose life cycles are closely understood by that many people. Everybody knows that wolves hunt in packs, housecats are sexually active loners and lions live in prides, and all of those things suggest certain personality traits — but who the heck really knows how a wolverine thinks? They're cranky and dangerous, sure, but so are a lot of humans. :) The more exotic the species we choose for our anthros, the harder it is to make them feel like a member of that species, because we don't really know how that species should feel.

The place where I've actually seen the most anthro fiction that really captured the alienness of life as a fur is in The Blind Pig stories. Not all TBP stories, to be sure, but there are some people who've worked in that setting who I think have done a really masterful job of capturing the psychology of an animal-person. Jon Sleeper, Channing, Feech, Phil, and Cubist have all done TBP stories that I thought really captured that alien mindset, as well as the struggles between the human psyche and the bestial instincts. For my own TBP stories I sort of cheated on this, since I had Raven essentially split her mind into its human and animal aspects, but I like to think that I was still able to do something interesting with that internal struggle.

I think part of the reason why MK hasn't seen as much of that sort of introspective development is because the external plots are bigger. An epic fantasy world like MK lends itself to broad stories of nations and empires, struggles against desperate odds and battles against dark forces — and the Keepers are only a tiny percentage of the overall group of players who are on that stage. Even Matty has written reams of work with groups of characters who don't have a single anthro among them, because the setting is just that big. Unless you consciously devote as much time to character development as you do to the external plot, you aren't going to really have the time or space to delve into the characters' minds and explore how their psychology has been altered by the Curse. TBP's stories are small and almost completely character-driven, so they can afford to focus in great detail on the one central problem of struggling with the Beast; in MK stories there's often so much else going on that the internal struggle falls by the wayside. I've been guilty of it as much as anyone, and my dissatisfaction with that is part of why my MK stuff is on hold.

There's also the opposite danger to consider: You want to acknowledge the struggle with the Beast, but you don't want that to be all that the character is about. Your character is a person before he is a Keeper, and you want to show that personality without the struggle against the Beast completely overwhelming it. Because these more human personal struggles are things that your audience can identify with, though, focusing on them will make the character's psychology seem less alien. It's a really tricky balancing act: you want your character to be sympathetic enough for the readers to connect with, but still maintain that sense of the alien that comes from an inhuman psyche (or at least inhuman instincts). It's a challenge that even published authors don't always pull off well, and one that I think we're all still struggling with.

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by RavenBRavenB, 1180979277|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
MatthiasRatMatthiasRat 1181002698|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I have been in arguments with folks before over comparing TBP and MK, and I really, really hate it. Everyone form TBP is so smug about how they have real stories, and MK just has adventure crap.

Well, let me turn that on its head. In MK, hope is not some elusive thing that post-modernism tries to drown in self-pity. Hope is real, and though everything seems to scream against it, it is still there.

We are not, as beings, geared towards wallowing in depression. We are geared towards survival. That reminder is ever-constant in Metamor Keep, a world far more dangerous and tenuous that TBP could ever be. Perhaps because people in Metamor are far more conscious of death, for it strikes far more often, they are in fact, better equipped to deal with the bestial natures that many of the now possess. In TBP, life had been good. Perhaps that is why TBP is more popular, because it is a better reflection of current American society, which focusses on itself and the lost feeligns that the materialistic society has created for us. A society which losses its moral compass, a society that has abandoned God, will be lost and adrift, and that is TBP.

MK is not adrift. MK has purpose, direction, real people in real situations in a real world. Yes, it is fantasy, but it is also real to everyone who lives, breathes, reads, and writes in it. And it has real struggles, struggles with death, life, coming to grips with what fate has done to them, both in terms of form and in terms of what they can do. There is evil in this world, both exterior and interior. But there is also good.

That you say furries really need to be a different species is rather ironic. You have always been adamant about preventing MK furries from breeding true. You wanted to make sure they had a constant infusion of human blood so that they wouldn't become beastly!! I have labored hard to make sure that in my vision of the future for Metamor Keep, these furry races would become just that, furry races, distinct from humans, with their own identities.

Yet in your alternate future, MK2K, you have denuded them, and written them int irrelevancy. I think we now see why. You believe furries need to be unique from humanity, but you have consistently tried to prevent that from happening in Metamor Keep. The fact that you do not find them as interesting in MK is simply your own fault. Instead of fighting those of us who are striving to give them a more unique role and position, perhaps you should embrace it. Maybe that is the real reason you have been blocked on your current MK, because you have been fighting your own instincts.

In the future I see for Metamor Keep, the noble lines of Metamor Valley are all different furry species who breed true. The extent of the curse spreads further, encompassing lands outside the valley (but not that far outside the valley), which makes furriness that much more ubiquitous. They are the future. Even as the elves and the Åelf gave way for the humans, in some respects, the humans give way for the new species that have sprung up from their own loins.

That is a turning of an age. It is the dawn of something new. In conjunction with all the events we have planned for this short time-span, I ask you, why not? Why not let the birth of many new species be the start of the new age for the world of Metamor Keep?

Ut Prosim

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by MatthiasRatMatthiasRat, 1181002698|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
MishaFoxMishaFox 1181012647|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Lets not reopen the MK vs TBP argument here. I've seen all too much of that on the TBP list. TBP has some good writers who really made some great stories but the whole universe seems so depressing. All the humans seem to be out to get them and things never really seem to work out completely for the characters.

The two universes are diamterically opposed in scope and scale. I still prefer MK as no matter how bad things get there is always hope.

How do we handle the furries? I have to admit at least being able to breed true among themselves does have a certain appeal. Orther people have comments?

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by MishaFoxMishaFox, 1181012647|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
MishaFoxMishaFox 1181012735|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

AK! TYPO! I meant the TSA list not the TBP list.

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by MishaFoxMishaFox, 1181012735|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
FoxMarineFoxMarine 1181014815|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The idea of "breeding true" is a difficult one for me to grasp in the MK setting. As Matt said it could be the birth of new species in the world, but for a creature to be that distinctly different of species (down in the DNA) they can no longer breed together, i.e. a human could not have children with a furry. I seem to remember this having something to do with chromosomes or something like that (reaching back to high school biology here). Now, in the current setting anyone can have children with anyone no matter how they are changed, except maybe AR. So the question I want to ask is this: Does the curse progress with genetics or does it merely play with them after they have been established? For example, if Matthias's children continue to breed with only rat morphs will there come a time when they can no longer produce offspring with any other types of morphs, keepers or non-cursed humans? Or will their DNA remain as human as Matthias's own is now that they could have children many generations later with whomever? This is how I can see new "species" forming, or not.

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by FoxMarineFoxMarine, 1181014815|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
MishaFoxMishaFox 1181022716|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Before we get deeply into this argument perhaps a restating of the present rules are in order.
http://mkworld.wikidot.com/writers-guidelines
Here is the section on Children:

The Curse's Effects on Children
The change is governed by a confusing mix of hormonal and psychological changes brought on by puberty. Therefore the change begins sometime at 14, and takes the normal two weeks to conclude. AR transformees show no visible effect of their transformation, but merely stop growing at a certain age. They are able to shift back and forth between toddler and 14 as usual. TG'ers and TF'ers continue to grow until they reach the end of puberty, even in their transformed bodies.

The children of transformed parents tend to express as their parents did. While this is by no means assured, the children of animal parents tend to express as the same species as their parents. If the parents are of two different species or transformee group, then the child may express as either one.

Since some writers wanted transformed babies, some finessing is called for. A recent breakthrough by Pascal and some other Keep alchemists has led to the development of a certain mixture. This mixture will cause the change to express itself as soon as the mixture is absorbed. (AR children will have the ability to shift ages since birth.) Though there is some risk for AR parents, TG and TF parents are hailing it as an excellent way to avoid the usual trauma of transformation.

Furthermore, on a few rare occasions, the children are born already transformed. This happens mostly with TF parents of exactly the same breed (i.e. Lord and Lady Avery).

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by MishaFoxMishaFox, 1181022716|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
FoxMarineFoxMarine 1181028330|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

so as children tend to express as their parents, but not always, the curse has a minimal effect on genetics, perhaps just a metaphorical push in one direction? Children of same species parents would have just gotten pushed twice in the same direction but their genetics aren't twice the push away from human. If I'm still shooting the wrong target here just let me know, or maybe I'm just trying to over think magic … probably the latter.

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by FoxMarineFoxMarine, 1181028330|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
MK Children
MatthiasRatMatthiasRat 1181090334|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I've always hated that rule on children. It deliberately ducks the issue of future generations. All it did was adopt the rules used by WoC. WoC is a collection of intro stories. How many WoC characters show up in more then three stories? How many?

I think if you want to have a setting with a long term future, you need to deal with these issues in a way that presents a future! If the issues that characters face doesn't ever change, then you'll only ever have the same stories over and over again. That is why I have always tried to push for furry children. They have different issues to face than did their parents.

Ut Prosim

unfold MK Children by MatthiasRatMatthiasRat, 1181090334|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
VirmirVirmir 1181098425|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

In the future I see for Metamor Keep, the noble lines of Metamor Valley are all different furry species who breed true. The extent of the curse spreads further, encompassing lands outside the valley (but not that far outside the valley), which makes furriness that much more ubiquitous. They are the future. Even as the elves and the Åelf gave way for the humans, in some respects, the humans give way for the new species that have sprung up from their own loins.

That is a turning of an age. It is the dawn of something new. In conjunction with all the events we have planned for this short time-span, I ask you, why not? Why not let the birth of many new species be the start of the new age for the world of Metamor Keep?

Okay, that idea simply reeks of awesomeness. Seriously, I've never thought about writing anything in a future MK time line, but holy crap, that just set off a dozen light bulbs. (Blast it! I must learn to write faster!!)

I'm going to have to agree with Charles' take on children. I've aways thought it strange to have the curse not effect the children of cursed parents. Not to mention, erm… compatibility issues of the parents themselves.

Since some writers wanted transformed babies, some finessing is called for. A recent breakthrough by Pascal and some other Keep alchemists has led to the development of a certain mixture. This mixture will cause the change to express itself as soon as the mixture is absorbed. (AR children will have the ability to shift ages since birth.) Though there is some risk for AR parents, TG and TF parents are hailing it as an excellent way to avoid the usual trauma of transformation.

I don't recall this ever being used in a story. Is this really necessary? It just seems a little awkward. :)

unfold Re: MK Children by VirmirVirmir, 1181098425|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
RavenBRavenB 1181101656|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

First off, I'll point out to Matty that I wasn't the one who invented the concept of high-generation effects of the Curse, even though I adopted it and expanded on it for use in MK2K. I'm not 100% sure which author came up with the idea of successive generations turning bestial, but I think it might have been Ryx.

I have no problem with the idea of certain bloodlines becoming associated with certain forms. The Matthias clan in MK2K is a very powerful noble house in which the vast majority of the members are rats, and the rat aspects of their psyche are represented in their clannishness, resourcefulness, adaptability and, yes, deviousness. The house of Hassan is still mostly horse-morphs, proud and regal and often stubborn. No doubt there are other such bloodlines as well, particularly among the skywalker class.

I have drawn a firm line, however, against the idea of the Cursed humans becoming completely different species. I believe that true reproductive isolation between the Cursed and the Uncursed would result in nothing less than disaster. Consider:

1.) The starting populations for each species in Metamor are very small. Many species only have one or two representatives in the entire Valley, and even the common ones (such as the rats or canids) aren't going to have all that much in the way of breeding stock. There aren't more than ten thousand people in the entire Valley, if memory serves; only about a third of those will be theriomorphs of any stripe, and even the most common species doesn't comprise more than a quarter of all theriomorphs (at a very generous estimate). So we're talking about something in the neighborhood of 800 people as the largest possible breeding stock on which to base the founding of an entire species. Inbreeding would be a severe problem within a couple of generations.

2.) Species can't coexist if they compete for the same resources and can't interbreed. Elves and lutins have some hope of coexisting with humanity because they can mate with humans and have fertile offspring. It might not be common, but it is possible, and history shows that that sort of common ground is enough for us to acknowledge each other's shared humanity. Modern humans systematically eliminated Neanderthals and every other hominid species that we shared the planet with, but we have not eliminated our fellow humans of other races, even though they may look very different from us.

In a fantasy world, I think that humans could potentially accept sentient species that used a completely different habitat (dragons, merfolk, griffons), or those that used the same resources but were miscible with humanity (elves, lutins). But a completely different species, breeding true and competing for the same resources? No. There would be war, and it would be ugly — and it would not stop until one side was eliminated. Given that any single furry race would have a starting population of less than 800, guess which side would win. And that's assuming that the different furs didn't start following their own respective instincts and turn on one another.

3.) True furry races, as I said, would be alien in mindset. Metamor is the story of humans who had something terrible happen to them and are learning to overcome it. If we stray too far from that — if we let the mindset of the Keepers change from "we're humans just like you, deep down" to "we're a new people ready to inherit the Earth" — then we risk letting MK turn into a paean to furry supremacy.

The idea of humans "giving way" to a rising tide of furs is horrifying to me. What about the other two thirds of the Cursed? Are we to expect the androgynes and pedomorphs to just let the theriomorphs take over? Or will they flee from their homes in order to try to find acceptance among uncursed humanity? The picture you're painting is an ominous one; no matter how good their intentions, these new species of animal-people would be seen as a threat to humanity's survival, and the humans would fight to keep from "giving way" before that threat. And, again, that's assuming that the different species of furs wouldn't turn against each other — which they would, once they had been reproductively isolated long enough to forget that their ancestors had fought and died together in common cause.

I can find no happy endings in the world you're envisioning, Matty. It is a recipe for ethnic strife on a scale our world has not seen since before the dawn of history. For Metamor's society to have any hope of remaining stable, its people must remain linked to each other, and to the rest of humanity. Better to sacrifice some of the uniqueness of furs, to move them closer to being a cosmetic difference, than to create a world in which the only viable outcomes are dominance or extinction.

last edited on 1181101855|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by RavenB + show more
unfold Re: MK Children by RavenBRavenB, 1181101656|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
MatthiasRatMatthiasRat 1181122506|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

To stave off any further over-reaction, let me completely disabuse you of one misconception: I did not state they couldn't breed with humans, I just stated that they shouldn't have to.

When I say breed true, what I mean is that when two rats or two of anything of the same 'species' mate, the offspring will be of the same 'species'. This type preservation is limited to the animorphs because of their unique situation.

In some sense, all ARs and all TGs are exactly alike. They are all still human. The animorphs have a non-human component in them that can be passed on from one generation to the next. Thus, children of ARs and TGs would still be susceptible to the curse in the normal fashion. If they do not, then there is no psychological change for them to endure when they do transform into one or the other, and if I read you correctly, that's what you want for them.

I understand your resource management discussion, what amazes me is how adamant you have been opposed to it in the past. I deliberately used it in all of the conflict sI have put between the elves and mankind. Yet in every instance you have tried to soften the blow. That was unrealistic.

There is no such thing as a future without wars. Nor am I trying to create a furry paradise, or anything of that sort. Every race has its advantages and disadvantages, and humans aren't going anywhere for a very long time. But I do see, in this one corner of the world, their foot print fading in favour of the furries who will, in time, come to dominate Metamor. It is simply a matter of breeding and statistics.

Suppose in the first generation, the population is evenly divided, and 1/10 of the animorphs give birth to animorph children. Then 1/30th of the next generation is already animorph. The other 29/30ths are born human, and change in equal portions by the curse. So the second generation has slightly more than a third animorphs. I think we can all see how that math goes.

I did not realize that by using the words, 'breeding true' that I would cause such horror in you. I meant breeding true in the same sense it means for the other races (although I confess, I never cared for inbreeding between humans and Lutisn and evles either — you will note that I never use it). Of course humans can interbreed with the animorphs, I think that's already happened in MK. But I think that as time passes, it ought to be the case that animorphs bear animophs whenever plausible.

Ut Prosim

unfold Re: MK Children by MatthiasRatMatthiasRat, 1181122506|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
RavenBRavenB 1181137289|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

To stave off any further over-reaction, let me completely disabuse you of one misconception: I did not state they couldn't breed with humans, I just stated that they shouldn't have to.

When I say breed true, what I mean is that when two rats or two of anything of the same 'species' mate, the offspring will be of the same 'species'. This type preservation is limited to the animorphs because of their unique situation.

Ah! All right, then. When you were using expressions like "furry races, distinct from humans, with their own identities," that implied separate species to my mind.

In some sense, all ARs and all TGs are exactly alike. They are all still human. The animorphs have a non-human component in them that can be passed on from one generation to the next. Thus, children of ARs and TGs would still be susceptible to the curse in the normal fashion. If they do not, then there is no psychological change for them to endure when they do transform into one or the other, and if I read you correctly, that's what you want for them.

<nods> Correct. Children born to ARs or TGs would still be susceptible to the Curse.

I understand your resource management discussion, what amazes me is how adamant you have been opposed to it in the past. I deliberately used it in all of the conflict sI have put between the elves and mankind. Yet in every instance you have tried to soften the blow. That was unrealistic.

I'm not sure what incidents you are referring to. One of the first mentions of Elves that I put into the timeline was of a very serious war between Elves and humans that caused great devastation in the Suielman Empire. That war was brought about by competition for resources and the Suielmans' jealousy over the richness of the Elven lands. It was only after Artela appeared in person and begged the Elves to spare Pyralis that they finally relented and withdrew. And you'll notice that the Elves have been very careful to keep humans from competing directly with them on their own lands: all humans and half-Elves in Quenardya are bondservants, responsible to an Elven master and forbidden from owning land on their own. The ethics of this are questionable, but by dividing their society into separate castes they have prevented the direct competition that would lead one side to exterminate the other.

Suppose in the first generation, the population is evenly divided, and 1/10 of the animorphs give birth to animorph children. Then 1/30th of the next generation is already animorph. The other 29/30ths are born human, and change in equal portions by the curse. So the second generation has slightly more than a third animorphs. I think we can all see how that math goes.

Assuming that the Curse remains uncontrollable, yes, I can agree that that's how the math would go — assuming that people didn't just flee beyond the range of the Curse so that their human children would not suffer its effects, which seems likely to me. And, of course, that would cause the furries who stay to become dominant that much faster, because no one else would want to live there.

Personally, I prefer to imagine a future in which the Curse can eventually be brought to heel, so that the tragedy of people being changed against their will is not perpetuated for generation after generation. I can't see Metamor becoming a prominent or influential nation as long as the horror of the Curse hangs over them; people will fear and shun them forever, no matter how prosperous they are, because they won't want to become like them. If the Curse is brought under control, so that its outcome can be chosen and its effects can be staved off if desired, then the theriomorphs will not become a majority, because most people will not want to become "freaks."1 The old, proud families will almost certainly hold on to their furry heritage, and there will always be some common folks who are willing to take the disadvantages in exchange for the advantages. The majority, though, will want to remain human; if anything, my guesstimate of 17% of Metamor City's population being furry is probably overly optimistic.

I do realize, of course, that not everyone in MK wants to see that future, which is why I treat MK2K as a spinoff rather than "the" future of MK. Even if the high-generation effects of the Curse that I have described are real, they will not become apparent until at least the fourth generation. There's plenty of room for us to write stories in MK without worrying about what happens to the characters' great-grandchildren.

last edited on 1181137506|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by RavenB + show more
unfold Re: MK Children by RavenBRavenB, 1181137289|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
MishaFoxMishaFox 1181156194|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

"Since some writers wanted transformed babies, some finessing is called for. A recent breakthrough by Pascal and some other Keep alchemists has led to the development of a certain mixture. This mixture will cause the change to express itself as soon as the mixture is absorbed. (AR children will have the ability to shift ages since birth.) Though there is some risk for AR parents, TG and TF parents are hailing it as an excellent way to avoid the usual trauma of transformation."

Virmir Has a point: I don't know who came up with that little rule. Has it ever been used in as sory?

unfold Re: MK Children by MishaFoxMishaFox, 1181156194|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
FoxMarineFoxMarine 1181175305|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

None in the archive that I can remember, or anything I've seen on the list.

unfold Re: MK Children by FoxMarineFoxMarine, 1181175305|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
MatthiasRatMatthiasRat 1181178114|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Regarding the mixture developed by the Keep alchemists, as it has never been used, or even mentioned, I think we can safely drop it, because it is rather silly. I've been making furry kids without it quite happily, and see no need for it.

Raven, in regards to your thoughts on controlling the curse and how Metamor can never be accepted, I have to disagree. I do not know if you have read much of my latest Metamor Keep tale, 'The Last Tale of Yajakali'. The prologue and the interludes are all set around 1000 CR, in the Matthias household. The venerable Laurence Matthias, a rat who is the uncle of the current Lord Matthias, is a storyteller recently returned from the kingdom of Cheskych where he spent a year in service to their king.

I think people are remarkably adaptable. Those in Metamor have certainly shown themselves to be. Given time, and exposure, most folks are going to lose their fear.

Further, in the timeline I set out, amulets have been created that can stave off the curse. That will definitely help reduce fears too.

I also see in the near future that Metamor is going to have its share of trouble, trouble that will further unite the Northern Midlands under Thomas's rule. For instance, once that mithril mine gets into full swing, you know both the Outer and Southern Midlands will go to war with them. They'd be fools not to try and take it, curse or no!

In any event, I stick by my belief that as time passes, more and more folks in Metamor Valley will be animorphs. I did a little math on this. Assuming that one tenth of the children born to animorphs in any generation will automatically be animorphs, then after ten generations, fully one fourth of the population will be born as animorphs, and with a third of the rest becoming animorphs once they are of age, in ten generations, half the cursed population will be animorphs. And if you assume a generation is 30 years, then by the year 1000 CR, fifty percent of the population would be animorphs.

Now obviously this is not scientific. I would consider it unlikely that a tenth of the first generation of animorphs would breed animorphs. But I do think it more likely that as time passes, animorphs are more likely to marry others of their kind. After all, even humans gravitate to those more like themselves. I figure it would be even more prevalent among animorphs.

And also, TGs can leave Metamor at any time. Animorphs have less choice in the matter, though as I said, in the future that will become more likely (as in the case of Laurence).

Let us be charitable though: this is a shared setting; people are going to write what they want to write. For most folks here, that means they are going to write furries. Back in the early days of Metamor Keep, there were a few other writers who wrote predominantly TG characters, but almost without exception, they were all male to female TG (in fact, Lindsey is the only major female to male TG character that I'm aware of). But in the TSA, male to female TG is all that gets written too by and large. The number of actual major AR characters is negligible (Father Hough, Wessex, anyone else?).

And this is why, considering that most folks here like furry, that we ought to more fully embrace the largely furry future of the MK setting. At least the near future in the next few hundred years. Things may turn around if the curse is ever controlled completely, but once it reaches a certain point, I don't know if it would necessarily tip back.

Ut Prosim

unfold Re: MK Children by MatthiasRatMatthiasRat, 1181178114|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
MishaFoxMishaFox 1181199917|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ok. I'm only posted a few thoughts.

I removed the alchemy part as suggested. It seems it was an idea that was never used.

The TG element of MK was never really heavily used and the AR part is rarely used. There aren't many AR characters but they are a part of MK. It is just how MK developed. But they have been a part of MK from the start and cannot be fully removed. They will probably remain lesser used (especially the AR) parts.

I am sure that the curse will never really be removed and once effected a person can never be 'cured'. Those are part of the guidelines laid down by Copernicus at the start of MK.

BUT I do see it as reasonable that in the future people will be able to 'bend' the rules a lot. A person may not be able to cure themselves of the curse but they could be able to choose whether TG or Morph (who would pick AR?).

In Winter Assault Nasoj gave his human soldiers & mages amulets he claimed would keep them safe from the curse. Did they really work? Interesting story ideas there!!!!

I think that eventually there would be a certain level of acceptance of the curse. Especially if there are ways to 'Control' it. After all there are people in Naples, Italy who live (literally) on the slopes of Vesuvius, an active volcano. In spite of being within sight of Pompeii and Herculaneum - 2 cities destroyed by that volcano. And I know of one man who lives within 200 meters of an ACTIVE lava flow!!! What's the old saying? Familiarity breeds contempt.

But there will always be those who have fear hatred and contempt towards the curse making for a lot of tension and hatred.

Those are a few of my thoughts. What are yours?

unfold Re: MK Children by MishaFoxMishaFox, 1181199917|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
MatthiasRatMatthiasRat 1181269985|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I would not want the TG or AR curses removed, nor those elements removed. Even though they have not been used as often, they are, as you say, part of MK.

I rather like your discussion of the folks in Naples living on the slopes of Mt. Vesuvius. Nice parallel!

unfold Re: MK Children by MatthiasRatMatthiasRat, 1181269985|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
FoxMarineFoxMarine 1181273706|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

It makes sense that as time moves on mages would find ways to work with the curse, after all man used to only dream of flying and now we simply exploit a loophole with air pressure to beat gravity. What says the curse doesn't have similar exploitable holes that magic just hasn't "discovered" yet?

unfold Re: MK Children by FoxMarineFoxMarine, 1181273706|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
RavenBRavenB 1181312071|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

<nods> I agree. The situation with the Curse is complicated by the fact that it is bound up with the mana spring under Metamor Keep, which is Kyia's power source. Kyia will definitely need to be involved in the process of controlling the Curse, since she is more intimately tied to its magic than anyone else, but I can see her working with human and even Elven mages in the effort to understand the tangled mess of magic that has been created by Nasoj's spells. Once Kyia has custody of the gods' power, at the conclusion of the Starchild arc, that should give them the necessary "oomph" needed to effect changes on the Curse; from that point it's a matter of figuring out the theory, which could take decades or more.

And yes, TG and AR should remain part of the setting, though the percentage of ARs probably will dwindle away to almost nothing once the Curse is under some measure of control. In the current-day MK stories (ca. 707 CR), I use ARs fairly extensively as background characters, since their abilities and limitations make them a natural choice for service as acolytes in the Lightbringer temple.

last edited on 1181312310|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by RavenB + show more
unfold Re: MK Children by RavenBRavenB, 1181312071|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
MatthiasRatMatthiasRat 1181336141|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I vote that it takes as long as possible. Honestly, as soon as the Curse is under control, the setting will change so greatly that some of us will no longer recognize it. I certainly feel that way about your MK2K spinoff.

And as I have already written, there is no control of the curs as of 1000 CR. There are amulets that can be worn to hold it at bay, but Kyia doe snot have control of it as of that time period.

I only moved 300 years into the future because it was not likely to have DRASTIC changes, but at the same time, I have kept my footprint there small so that changes can be made. But there are a few things I feel are important, or the reason folks come to write in Metamor Keep goes away.

After all, without the curse, Metamor Keep is just any other fantasy setting. Why should people write in MK if there is no curse? Because once the curse is controlled, there is effectively no curse.

Ut Prosim

unfold Re: MK Children by MatthiasRatMatthiasRat, 1181336141|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
RavenBRavenB 1181491208|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

And as I have already written, there is no control of the curs as of 1000 CR. There are amulets that can be worn to hold it at bay, but Kyia does not have control of it as of that time period.

Kyia doesn't have complete control of it in MK2K, either. She can control which manifestation of the Curse affects a person, but only if she knows what they want, which requires a large amount of paperwork to process. She has tweaked the effects of the Curse to allow people to temporarily assume their original forms, but there is a backlash associated with it — e.g., a theriomorph who spends time as a full human must pay back the resulting imbalance by spending time in full animal form. Amulets are still needed to hold the Curse at bay completely, but the technology has improved to the point where those who can afford them wear subdermal implants that can't be lost or stolen. A person who stays within the Curse's range — which now stretches as far as Ellcaran, due to the rise in ambient mana levels — is still susceptible to a random transformation if they spend more than about 5 days there without a suppression amulet. Tragedies associated with it are relatively rare, but the Curse is still there and has to be dealt with.

That having been said, I have no problem with the improvements in Kyia's management of the Curse being gradual. The suppression amulets would be the first thing discovered; learning how to expand the range of forms available to the Cursed would come later, and finally Kyia would learn how to determine which version of the Curse a person was affected by. Complete control of the Curse is something that will probably never happen; it's simply too big and chaotic for anyone to unravel it, even someone as powerful as Kyia.

unfold Re: MK Children by RavenBRavenB, 1181491208|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
MishaFoxMishaFox 1181622563|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Sounds good to me. For the immediate future in MK there is no cure for the curse and no way to effect it. In later years (like MK2K) there are ways to effect it but the curse is never removed.

unfold Re: MK Children by MishaFoxMishaFox, 1181622563|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
Absolute ZeroAbsolute Zero 1184867602|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Misha - In response to your question (Who would choose AR?) above, I would say someone who wishes for eternal youth… hey, thats a good story idea! Oh, and I remember reading something to effect of that the Keepers weren't sure if the AR curse granted supposed immunnity to dieing of old age, after all - AR's don't age! If I remember correctly, nobody was sure if an AR could die of old age because an AR hasn't died of old age yet.

unfold Re: MK Children by Absolute ZeroAbsolute Zero, 1184867602|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
RavenBRavenB 1184873501|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

If I remember correctly, nobody was sure if an AR could die of old age because an AR hasn't died of old age yet.

<nods> That is indeed the case. Since it has been less than a decade since the BO3G, nobody knows for certain what will happen to the ARs as they get older.

In MK2K, pedomorphs (as they are then called) will show no physical signs of aging until they reach the last few years of their natural life span. At that point, their bodies begin to break down rapidly without actually growing, and they lose their ability to shift back and forth between ages. This leads to the disturbing result of having apparent children whose features are as old and withered as a 90-year-old's — though most pedomorphs end up spending more and more time at an apparent age of 13-14 as they get older, so as to "lock in" to a form that isn't completely crippling.

unfold Re: MK Children by RavenBRavenB, 1184873501|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Children
MysticMystic 1184948216|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Actually I did do a scene about an AR dieing of old age at the beginning of "Encounters of Ill Chance" and talked about the drawbacks of that aspect of the Curse. It wasn't on camera, but I believe I portrayed it as just dieing suddenly of whatever would have killed them. In my opinion the otherwise healthy child dropping dead for no apparent reason adds an interesting dynamic to the AR curse. The lifetime of youth becomes at once both a significant up and a significant down of that Curse. Aging prepares us for death, allowing us and our loved ones to become prepared for it. We spend less time doing and more time sharing our experiences with the generations to come. Heck if nothing else it allows us to track time over the course of our lives.

<nods> That is indeed the case. Since it has been less than a decade since the BO3G, nobody knows for certain what will happen to the ARs as they get older.

I imagine at least a few would have died over a span of ten years, but you're right it still wouldn't be a common place event

unfold Re: MK Children by MysticMystic, 1184948216|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
RichardsonRichardson 1185335532|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Stargate. I'll leave you figuring out just how, though.

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by RichardsonRichardson, 1185335532|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: MK Inspiration
FenrsFenrs 1247176644|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Honestly, when working on my story my mind often goes to Doctor Who, but more often than not an Idea will spring into my head and I'll work off of that. I suppose I don't really know where my inspiration comes from, exactly, but I would say it comes from a gigantic mish-mash of stuff I've experienced, seen, or read throughout my life. I think also Terry Pratchett, because I find myself randomly upper-casing words to make them look more important or special…
I even did it with the word idea in the first sentence of this post.


A traveling wolf is me.

unfold Re: MK Inspiration by FenrsFenrs, 1247176644|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
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