Churches vs the Curse

Summary:

How would the various religious hierarchies react to the Curse?

Churches vs the Curse

Cubist 1226738564|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

A couple weeks back, Charles Matthias had a somewhat odd suggestion: He proposed that priests of Eli (I think it was?) are immune to the TG flavor of the Metamor Curse because of their god explicitly shielding them from getting TGed. Me, I'd been under the impression that while any available God worth its salt could (if It chose to do so) shield anybody from any flavor of said Curse, at the same time, no God(s) have yet seen fit to actually do that. As well, I really couldn't understand why a God that's okay with His priests getting zapped into half-animal creatures might object to His priests getting TG'ed…
But regardless of what the Gods may or may not feel like doing, Matthias' suggestion begs an interesting question: How do the various religions (as distinct from the Gods which are worshipped by those religions!) feel about the Curse? Perhaps there's a faction of Eli's followers who do believe that Eli shields His clergy from getting TG-ified. So what happens when an Eli-ite priest spends a little too much time in the Metamor Valley, and ends up with a shiny new set of freshly-remodeled chromosomes? Does the newly-minted she-priest have to fight her own hierarchy to retain her status in said hierarchy? If there is an ecclesiastical dispute, how far are the 'no girls allowed' types willing to go to defend their 'ideal' of sexually-segregated clergy — nasty letters to the Pope-analog, or a full-blown doctrinal schism, or something in between?
Just some food for thought…

Re: Churches vs the Curse

Hallan 1226983283|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Quit trying to troll Matt, Cubist. Matt created the Ecclesia, has invested a massive amount of time with it, and he should have a considerable amount of say in what goes on with it. No gender flipping.

Also, if I remember correctly, the daedra have on several occasions shielded people from the Curse. It is, after all, they who designed the original curses.

Now with all that said, if we strip away the Matt-baiting and the faulty statements, we do actually get to a decent question: What is the 'official' position regarding the Curse taken by the Ecclesia and the Lothanansi?

Re: Churches vs the Curse

MatthiasRat 1227055497|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I don't mind exploring these issues some myself. And I think that my tantrum should not be the end of the discussion regarding Ecclesia priests and I'm embarrassed that is how it worked out.

I've stated that the official position of the Ecclesia regarding the Curse is that it is in no way a person's fault being cursed and that it has no impact on a person's salvation as such. This was decreed by Patriarch Akabaieth and revealed to Father Hough in "Intersecting Correspondences".

Dominus tecum

Re: Churches vs the Curse

Kit Sune 1227149790|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

You threw a tantrum? Wow, completely missed that. Anyway, from what I gather, the church has nothing against the transformed. The AR are just made younger and in the words of their patriarch, "Are we not all children of Eli?" The animals, though once considered demons are now viewed in a more realistic light, as are the TGs no longer seen as lustful harlots. It has absolutely no bearing on their salvation whatsoever. However, in the view of the church, I've noticed that while males and females both will go to heaven (neither is inherently evil aside from the original sin concept), males and females fulfill different roles in the church's view. They have a different place in society. Kind of in a way like us before sufferage. As such, the priests cannot be female and it's not proper for the nuns to be male either. This is why they needed a no TG gaurentee from their god. Now remember, this is all speculation on my part, so I'm going to pause here to double check. Matt, if any of this is wrong, just say so.

Anyway, moving on now to the lothanasi, they hardly seem to care one way or the other. In a religion where half the gods are female, there really isn't as much of a difference between males and females in the eyes of society. Plus they've had lots of dealings with the daedra and know it's not really the fault of those in the keep, although some might see them as 'tainted' anyway. Kind of similar to Matt's Chateau de Marzac where to simply enter its range is to become tainted beyond hope, and instantly a servant of the forces of darkness. Some lightbringers might believe that to be touched by the curse means by default that you have fallen under the influence of the daedra and are not to be trusted. With this religion, there's no specific curse that is bad, but rather anyone who has been touched will possibly be distrusted by some. For the most part though, I get the idea that they don't much care, the person is still the same person, just a little different on the outside.

Other cultures have different opinions, but in the end, it's up to the creator of the culture itself. The knights from the plains view the tg curse as the ultimate horror and dishonor, while ar is in the same direction but not as bad. They don't mind animal curses so long as they are not turned into some dishonorable animal (they're a little obsessive about the honor issue if you've not noticed). The rebuilder faction of the ecclesia seems to also be openminded on the curse issue, but I'm not entirely sure about that. Again, for the most part, it's up to the person who created the culture/person in question. I've given my ideas from what I've noticed of the two major factions, but you'll have to ask individuals about the smaller ones.

Re: Churches vs the Curse

Cubist 1227530272|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

"Trolling"? Give me a break, Hallan. I was commenting on a fictitious construct — a made-up religion (the Ecclesia) with an imaginary deity (Eli) that's worshipped by nonexistent people (characters in the MK setting). Yes, the Ecclesia is summat similar to the RealWorld religion Matt subscribes to. So what? I'm working under the presumption that Matt is capable of distinguishing between comments-about-stuff-he-made-up and comments-about-his-RealWorld-religion. If this presumption is indeed valid, I don't see why Matt should get bent out of shape about anything I wrote.
It's relevant to wonder exactly how similar the Ecclesia is to Christianity, tho. The Bible says that all animals are inferior/subordinate to human beings; if the Ecclesia's teachings include anything like that, it's real hard to understand why this Eli joker would both (a) stomp on the TG-flavor Curse and (b) let the animal-flavor Curse slide. Letting both slide, fine (see also: "Eli is testing you", I suppose); stomping on both, that makes sense too (albeit it would also seem to violate the setting guidelines, which state that the Gods usually don't do anything of the kind); stomping on the animal-flavor Curse but allowing the TG-flavor to happen, okay; but stomping on TG-flavor and letting animal-flavor happen? That's just… weird.

Re: Churches vs the Curse

Cubist 1227530824|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I think it might be quite interesting to write the story of an Ecclesia priest who gets hit by the TG-flavor curse, and wants to keep her old job. If the Ecclesia priesthood really is a 'no girls allowed' club, her insistence that she's just as good a priest as she ever was would make for an economy-sized helping of isotopically-pure Drama, hence one heck of a story!

Re: Churches vs the Curse

Ryx 1227566225|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I would like to lay down my opinion that no one is immune to any particular manifestation of the Curse, regardless of their faith.

Eli, being the omnicient beneficient deity that he is would not take any action whatsoever to prevent someone from suffering the TG manifestation of the curse. It is their fate, such as fate may be described, and within His greater design. Nor would Eli purposely cause anyone to suffer any particular manifestaiton of the curse, as He already Knows what aspect they will assume (or aspects, sic).

Likewise the Aedra/Daedra cannot guide the curse, or protect their faithful indefinately. Yes, they can push back the touch of the curse under extreme circumstances, but never fully prevent it (yet). The only peoples not affected by the curse are wholly immune to it (aelves, lutins, other non-human races) because it is specific to humans and a few unexpected secondary races (kitsune type?).

This is my stance, it is not a hard and fast rule, but the one rule about the curse, the one unmutable core aspect, is that no one is immune, and it cannot be guided (in attempting to manipulate the curse very… odd things happen) or manipulated by any known or reproducable methods once it has affected someone.

The ability to forestall the curse indefinately, and manipulate its touch, comes hundreds of years in the future if one follows the MK2K plotline.

Re: Churches vs the Curse

MatthiasRat 1227694251|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

It was my preference to have no restrictions in this vein. However, for various reasons, some of which poked their heads up in this thread, I didn't want to let the TG curse happen to Ecclesia religious.

Allow me to elucidate. First, we are all 20th/21st century writers writing about characters who more often than not think of dilemmas in terms of 20th/21st century constructs yet are writing in a setting which historically speaking has more in common with the 12th/13th centuries. People in those times thought about things very differently than we do now. Several basic presuppositions that are made by people today are completely foreign to the way of thinking of people back then, and ought to be foreign to the way people think in the wider MK world. Every time I hear somebody talking about being open minded or what not I cringe because it is very much out of place. There are lots more examples of this.

There is also a natural tendency for writers to project the problems and issues they see about them in the world today into a setting such as this and attempt to either fix them or present an idealized place for them. We've all succumbed to this to one degree or another. Let me take a notable example from a write who no longer writes in Metamor. Phil Guesz created the nation of Whales specifically as the MK equivalent of his Freedom City setting. The Island is more or less agnostic, with a strong military and martial code, and a sense of freedom and class mobility (hence Phil's character going from commoner to crown prince). And prior to leaving MK he extracted a promise from several that the Island be left exactly as he intended it. I have stated that I think his request is historically nonviable, but it was his creation and I will respect that.

Phil has long wanted to create such a society because he believes that such a society would be stable and provide the right balance of liberty and order. Is it realistic? Could things happen with Whales that violate Phil's requests that would make for an interesting story? Of course! But if we refuse to show respect to Phil in this regard, then why should any one show any respect for anything we create in Metamor?

So yes, this is partly about respect for my creation and my wishes for the Ecclesia. If I felt I could trust people not to write the kind of stories that would violate my wishes for the Ecclesia, then I would never have asked for this rule. One of the things I do not want to see written is the whole priest becomes female and insists on still being a priest and causes huge split in the Ecclesia story-line. That is outrageously 20th/21st century thinking set out to correct what is seen as a 12th/13th century institution. I steadfastly oppose this because it undermines my vision for the Ecclesia and the purpose for which I created it. I can think of stories that involve the TG curse on the Ecclesia that would not violate what I want, but those aren't the sort of stories anybody here seems interested in writing. Why not? Those stories approach the issue from as much of a 12th/13th century perspective as I can muster and would not tickle the fancies of the 20th/21st century mind as much. It is not surprising to me that nobody else has thought of them.

So, in a word, this is a matter of respect for my efforts in MK. I do not want to establish such a rule. But I am not going to disarm myself in the face of people intent on doing harm to my creation. I know that most people here can respect that. And I thank you for it. All I truly ask, is that if anything of this sort is to be done, let me do it first in the way I want to see it done.

Dominus vobiscum

Re: Churches vs the Curse

Kit Sune 1227695561|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

It seems to me that it would be simpler by far to just say that you have veto power over your creation of the Ecclesia. On the other hand I suppose that would create just as much drama. Either way it seems that everyone agrees needing such a rule is stupid and silly, but sadly necessary. I for one freely admit that I know little of current religion, let alone religion in the 12th century. I know who what deities are and for the most part the myths surrounding them, but the idealisms themselves? I know several current opinions of various religions on various subjects, but I don't really know why they consider their opinion valid and the reasoning behind it. Or at least, I don't understand it. I think there's all of 2 paragraphs in the entire bible briefly saying the gays are bad, yet it spawns such intense feelings while other things briefly mentioned are completely ignored? Anyway, if you stated such a warning directly attached to the Ecclesia itself rather than creating a decree from Eli himself, I think it would have gone over much better.

Re: Churches vs the Curse

MatthiasRat 1227716669|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'm not sure if I ever specified a mechanism by which Ecclesia religious are shielded. I know I put forward some possibilities, but I never settled on anything myself, and the decision was reached before I added anything to the conversation beyond my initial salvo.

If you would like some discussion on various Catholic opinions and focus throughout the centuries, I could offer what meagre knowledge I have on the subject in another venue.

However, the lack of knowledge and the application of 20th/21st century mentalities to what are essentially 12th/13th century institutions represents a real problem in Metamor Keep. Consider my act one of shielding one institution from such an application.

I would love to be able to relax myself in this regard, but given what people have said on the subject and what they would like to do, I don't see how I can at this time.

Dominus vobiscum

Re: Churches vs the Curse

Trailsend 1227729261|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

One of the things I do not want to see written is the whole priest becomes female and insists on still being a priest and causes huge split in the Ecclesia story-line. That is outrageously 20th/21st century thinking set out to correct what is seen as a 12th/13th century institution.

Diiiitto.

In regard to a "mechanism," the card you played for the Yeshuel-always-born-male bit could work rather conveniently. The randomness of the curse comes in handy, because we as authors, being the Masters of Fate in this little universe (I'm terribly tempted to write a non-canon spoof that suggests the elusive Fates of the Lothanasi pantheon are actually us, the writers :P ), can just ensure that TG doesn't happen to the Ecclesia folk. The characters themselves can theorize about the statistical peculiarity of it all they want, but unless they decide to get scientifically rigorous and import large quantities of priests from Yesulam to see how the curse reacts, there's no way to really confirm such people are "immune" to the TG flavor.

Quoth the late Akabaieth: "Yeah, funny story. No Yeshuel have ever been born female, and none of our priests have ever been gender-swapped by MK. We think it might be an Eli thing."

Quoth the crafty fate-bending author: "Bwaha. Loopholes."

Thus we preserve Matt's wishes and also Ryx's point about the rules against curse immunity.

Re: Churches vs the Curse

Kit Sune 1227585057|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

While I share this opinion, and don't think I'll ever get over the fact that these nuns and priests need a god to intercede for them over something that silly, but I need to read the relevant chapter before I form a valid opinion. And the kitsune was turning INTO a human, that's the only reason he was affected. In a way the MK curse just nullified his other curse, weakening the human part of him, letting him 'fight it off' so to speak.

Re: Churches vs the Curse

Ryx 1242546137|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well.. (yes, a bit late)… how about this:

The potentialities of being TG'd while a faithful member of the church (ordained, et al, and keeping within the strictures of the Canticles/Eli rather than using it as a means to personal gain) are extremely low… beyond the norm by far but not wholly unheard of.

But the Church is willing to accept that these things happen, especially in the Metamor Diocese, so there are allowances made when such occurs (i.e. a Priest becoming female must thenceforth become a Nun, or vice-versa, in keeping with Church doctrine), but otherwise there is no stigma associated with a 'natural aspect' of being a resident of that region.

Grant you, I do not see myself or anyone that I know of writing a story that would deal with such a situation, but for the future writers or those that might be… it's something that needs to be discussed with the Core Writers, and especially with Matt as it is his personal perview.